1 2 3 MR. DOUGHERTY: Good morning. How's 4 the sound this morning? A little better than 5 yesterday? 6 This isn't bad. This is about the 7 same amount of people who usually go to Sacred 8 Heart mass this time. 9 Just a little rehash on yesterday on 10 the symposium. 11 I want to thank -- I notice a few 12 people are back today -- I want to thank 13 everyone that showed up. This was a -- and 14 because I was asked a couple questions earlier 15 this morning I'm going to just take a second. 16 And my understanding, there's somewhere in the 17 vicinity of 150,000 fliers given out over -- a 18 total around 600,000 pieces -- advertising 19 this symposium through three or four 20 neighborhoods over a period of a week or so. 21 Even though I yesterday basically 22 kept this apolitical, the Senate bill 862 is 23 what drove the emphasis to get more input on 24 what was happening on the water front. 25 Now, today we have a decent amount 2 2 of not only neighborhood people but 3 representatives from the I.L.A. here. And 4 it's funny, you would never -- if you talked 5 to some of the people who attended yesterday's 6 seminar, they had no idea, okay, some being 7 new Philly residents that are part of the 8 3,000 condos in Marie Lederer's legislative 9 district or some of the Old City/Queens 10 Village/Society Hill area who doesn't have the 11 same lineage or family lines in the I.L.A. 12 that people like myself and State 13 Representative Keller, having had a 14 grandfather and a father both put food on the 15 table via the port, it was real interesting 16 and absolutely proved that this was needed. 17 Because we took no time because, 18 again, we went, I think we went so far out of 19 our way to not have any political overtures 20 that we might have did ourselves a little bit 21 of a disservice by not touching a little bit 22 on that bill. 23 You know, that bill has drawn the 24 ire of a lot of people because it's worth, as 25 some people said, the greatest economic 3 2 windfall in this area on any one piece of 3 development other than the stadiums in years. 4 But what it does, we're not worried about who 5 owns the land, who owns the distributorships 6 on these deals, we were concerned about how it 7 affects the neighborhood. And the bill itself 8 takes out almost all neighborhood input. 9 And what happens is, for example, 10 you know, we just had a smoking ban, so now in 11 our conversation with some people from the 12 hospitality industry they say, Hey, it's tough 13 enough to compete with new hospitality 14 businesses such as casinos, people who have 15 done business with casinos in the past, they 16 say because they have a habit of early on in 17 their tenure of giving away food and beer. 18 And now you have an opportunity to smoke. So 19 it hurts the people along the line, the For 20 Pete Sake's, who transcend a whole lot of 21 neighborhoods on Front Street. Okay, so that 22 was one concern, smoking. 23 Then you talk about how 24 neighborhoods have been fighting with the help 25 of groups like SCRUB, okay, over a period of 4 2 years, billboards, and how it gives Delaware 3 Avenue unlimited access. And these were some 4 of the concerns that were raised. 5 Then it talks about the fact that 6 they would be free from, not only fees, but 7 any oversight of the city when it comes to 8 water and sewage. We had a series of people 9 that live -- it just happens that I'm here not 10 as a labor leader, not as anyone that has 11 political ambition, as a head of Pennsport 12 Civic Association, where I average about 30 13 calls or 30 visits a week, either between 14 myself or Bernadette Mason, about basement 15 flooding. 16 It's no longer about water in the 17 basement, it's about a health issue. Okay. 18 It's about an infrastructure issue or concerns 19 of infrastructure. Your house isn't supposed 20 to handle 12 to 13 inches of dirty backed up 21 sewer water like Mike O'Donnell has 22 experienced on the 100 block of Mifflin 23 Street. Which is in the center of Pennsport, 24 is one of the more prominent blocks we have in 25 the sense that long term families, almost 5 2 every house has a multi-family -- multi-person 3 family in it, and most are fairly newly 4 renovated. Over an 18-month period I think he 5 said he had six floods of 12 to 14 inches of 6 water. That's a health issue. 7 Okay. So that's a little bit more 8 than just the Senate bill. There's no spot in 9 the Senate bill that explains about the fact 10 that there'll be no oversight. And it doesn't 11 have like a little asterisk that says, See 12 Mike O'Donnell for future information. 13 So that's why we're here. This was 14 put together because we had three legislators 15 who initially had supported gaming. Now, 16 everyone has a different view, but I'm not 17 going to speak for them, they can speak for 18 themselves. But I think they more than 19 adequately represented their district and 20 their concerns and the changing neighborhoods 21 which are in their district. 22 For example, the things that -- and 23 I bumped State Representative Keller during 24 the process yesterday because when he was 25 talking about $150 million dollars of state 6 2 money coming into the Food Produce Center, 3 most people in the labor movement say, Well, 4 I'm going to build it, most Teamsters work in 5 there, so it's, oh, it has to work. 6 Okay, well, the way that it was 7 positioned -- again, without fitting into any 8 plans here, two things happened. Yesterday it 9 was understood that they're going to put a 10 road in the middle of it, it's going to be 11 taxpayer money, and the way the road is 12 positioned it will probably hurt future 13 development of the long shore unit. 14 In the process, it also talked about 15 dumping most of the traffic onto Delaware 16 Avenue. Okay, we're talking 400 trucks per 17 morning was the number that was given to us in 18 some of preparation information. Okay, so 19 they're the type of issues that were discussed 20 yesterday morning. 21 And then we talk about the actual 22 gaming institutions. And again, I've told you 23 I've been on record wearing my other hat -- 24 and I didn't talk about my other hat yesterday 25 at all. I have been on the record saying, 7 2 Hey, I'm for gaming under the right conditions 3 and the right locales. I have supported all 4 type of development on the water front. But 5 you get to a point where when neighborhoods 6 are legislated out of the process, where the 7 development is once in a lifetime development 8 and you're being steamrolled over. 9 Because we had the authorities from 10 the state who told us they were given just a 11 folder about what it looked like as well as 12 traffic studies and infrastructure of the 13 casinos. We had the Streets Department 14 basically state the same thing. Basically, 15 the understanding we had that there's been 16 just a complementary sort of cavalier, you 17 know, communication process between the city. 18 So who are we, the neighbors, supposed to go 19 to? 20 So that's why we decided to have a 21 Delaware River 2015 Symposium. And the 2015 22 isn't just about the casinos. It's about, we 23 have people in the room, that as State 24 Representative Keller talked about, industry 25 and future development of the port and the 8 2 need to over -- the need to expand the port 3 because of the people knocking the door down. 4 And we have people from the Delaware Valley 5 Planning Commission giving you all the cargo 6 reports on the screen and projections and all 7 that stuff. I mean, that's -- a lot of people 8 were just looking in the air. You want to 9 hear, Where's the green space? And where is 10 our access to the water front? 11 And on the other side, okay, even 12 deeper down you're starting, you're starting 13 to just -- people just want to know the 14 infrastructure off of I-95, they don't want 15 Schuylkill South. And when I asked the TIP 16 program, the Transformation Information Plan, 17 they have a 12, 15 and 30-year study, Reed 18 Street is not on that. Reed Street is the 19 access and egress that all four prospective 20 casinos on the water front have used as their 21 main outlet for transportation, for vehicle 22 transportation. It's not even on the study. 23 And when we talked about, you know, 24 they're whispering in the ear, if we do 25 something on Girard Avenue we'll have a 9 2 temporary offramp. But I think we cleared 3 that up yesterday, there's no temporary 4 offramp even on the plan or nobody discussed 5 it. 6 So these were -- I think it was a 7 very interesting day. I wanted to come out 8 here early today and say, Hey, look, this has 9 purely been, you know, and the word "good 10 government" is thrown around too frequently it 11 becomes more of an adjective for political 12 campaigns. Okay. I mean, this is something 13 that has been very good because you've had so 14 many people with different interests that 15 realize that we have to work together. 16 And today we're going to jump 17 into -- we have the Planning Commission here, 18 we have one of the City Solicitor's lawyers 19 whose been involved with the gaming 20 application. And also two of them have been 21 working on the Mayor's executive order on his 22 vision for the plan for the water front. 23 And one of my concerns was, I was 24 very happy that the neighborhoods were all 25 included, but I was a little frustrated that 10 2 there was nobody from the labor community 3 included. Because there's a ton of jobs. 4 And, you know, I know the Mayor and 5 the local councilman had this structured that 6 way to have community input. And we also know 7 that there's a year left to the Mayor's term 8 and that there's also council elections within 9 a year. So as much as we're being apolitical 10 here, we also have to identify the fact that 11 everybody might not be. 12 So just when we walk in here the 13 last thing I want is this not to be a 14 productive -- you know, and it's already, from 15 my opinion, it's already a much more 16 productive symposium than I even expected. 17 Okay. On a Saturday night I had five to seven 18 calls either in reference to about what 19 occurred, how come they weren't included or 20 what's happening tomorrow. It was a beautiful 21 Saturday, okay, so it was a beautiful 22 Saturday. 23 With that, I'd like to just go 24 across the table. We have a couple -- we have 25 a new addition to our front today, another one 11 2 of our community activists. 3 And the way we'll handle this is 4 we'll go through -- let me read what we handed 5 out there, we'll read through -- we have Dave 6 Knapton here from City Planning and he's got a 7 few -- he has one or two associates with him. 8 We'll talk a little bit about that. We're 9 going to talk about development on the water 10 front. 11 I get the bad news to tell you, Carl 12 Primavera, who is pretty active on behalf 13 of -- he's representing community groups and 14 large development, his dad passed away last 15 night. So keep his family in your prayers. 16 And he'll be represented today here by Ron 17 Patterson, who is his protege. 18 And then this afternoon we're going 19 to talk about a couple -- 20 MR. KNAPTON: We're teasing. 21 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: He's his 22 equal, not his protege. 23 MR. GREENBERG: Carl would say he's 24 a protege, Ron would say -- 25 MR. DOUGHERTY: And then this 12 2 afternoon we'll wrap it up with gaming. 3 Remember, we will take a look at -- 4 we will take a look at every question and if 5 we feel up here that people either submitted 6 it after the fact, that it wasn't a thorough 7 answer, because we are going to have 8 documents, we are going to have information 9 and facts of what occurred here, will be 10 available at the Pennsport office in a couple 11 days. Bernadette asked me to give her a 12 couple days to get the stuff together. 13 Any questions you have, any other 14 concerns you have, anything you think you 15 needed, any reports that you were shown 16 yesterday or slides that you think you would 17 like a peek at to compare them to either yours 18 or just to better educate yourself, feel free. 19 Significant pieces of paper that 20 were voluntarily given to us yesterday. You 21 know, just when you talk about the backed up 22 sewer, we did get a letter from the Free 23 Library, Whitman Branch which talked about how 24 they had to close because of the problem. So 25 it starts to interfere with just the way our 13 2 kids live too. 3 With that, I'll go to my right, 4 Marie Lederer. 5 REPRESENTATIVE LEDERER: Thank you. 6 And thank you for being here. 7 I had reservations about voting for 8 casinos. And Bill Keller sits next to me in 9 the House. And I felt very abused by the 11 10 mega nightclubs that donned Delaware Avenue 11 for about a mile and-a-half, 11 of them. And 12 a mega nightclub was a nightclub that held 13 between 1,500 and 3,000 people a night. And 14 the neighborhood was subjected to all kinds of 15 unsocialized behavior from these people. And 16 I was like a voice in the wind trying to 17 curtail some of the activities that went on 18 there. 19 So when the casino -- when I knew 20 the casino bill was going to be coming up I 21 sent out a newsletter with a poll. And my 22 then Chief of Staff, Mike O'Brien, headed it 23 for me. And I thought, you know, that I could 24 get a lesser percent of yeses than nos. I was 25 wrong. It came back 68 percent for casinos. 14 2 So that's what my people wanted and that's 3 what I voted for. 4 But I am concerned that it took us 5 ten years to get rid of those casinos and not 6 until we had four or five murders and 7 stabbings and all kinds of problems were we 8 able to one at the time close them down. If 9 these amendments go through on that bill we 10 won't be able to close them down. 11 So what happens with this bill is 12 extremely important. And I am very, very 13 happy that this symposium is taking place 14 because people have a right to know. And I 15 hope we can affect a change. Thank you. 16 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Good 17 morning, everybody. Thanks for being here and 18 again it's early on a weekend and you're 19 taking your time from your family to be here. 20 And as we said yesterday, we believe this is 21 an important issue. And guess what, after 22 yesterday there's no doubt left. 23 First, I'd like to thank Pennsport 24 and Whitman for coming up with this idea and 25 approaching us with it. Usually you hear that 15 2 we're going to have the meeting, we'll get 3 together, absolutely we say yes, we'll get 4 together. This is probably the best run, 5 outside of the legislative hearings, 6 neighborhood-run function that I've ever been 7 associated with. And yesterday I think, 8 again, reiterated what we were here and what 9 we were trying to accomplish here. 10 Yesterday we learned that basically 11 there is no plan. We started out yesterday -- 12 I started out yesterday by saying if we do 13 this the right way, we slow down and take our 14 time, we could develop this water front the 15 way it has to be developed. There's room 16 along the water front for the residential 17 condo development that's going on. There'll 18 be room for the commercial development. And 19 more than ever we need to sit down and protect 20 the port industrial. 21 That is why, that is why the city of 22 Philadelphia is here. 200 years ago, 300 23 years ago when they settled here it was 24 because of the river and that's why 25 Philadelphia is here. It's still that 16 2 important, we have to take that into 3 consideration. 4 We learned yesterday that there 5 was -- there's plans on the board now that 6 will absolutely be detrimental. And that's 7 one of the things we have learned that not 8 many people know about. We've decided, 9 Representative Taylor and Lederer and myself, 10 that we're going to send a -- and 11 Representative Taylor is rehashing it right 12 now -- we're going to send a letter to the 13 Secretary of Transportation, Tad Dechert. We 14 need more answers before we move forward, 15 before we just, as we say and as I've been 16 saying the whole weekend, try to jam a square 17 peg in a round hole. To me that looks like 18 what's going on here. 19 We're going to go back tomorrow and 20 go to our colleagues and go to our prospective 21 caucuses and go to our respective leaders in 22 the House and say that this Bill 862 as it 23 stands has to be slowed down so we can take a 24 look at it or it has to be changed. It's 25 going to be impossible for us to vote for the 17 2 bill the way it is now. It is detrimental, 3 not only to the water front but to the 4 neighborhoods associated with the water front. 5 So I would again like to thank 6 Whitman and Pennsport and all the other 7 neighborhood groups that participated in this. 8 This turned out much better, I believe, than 9 anybody expected. And I guess we're going to 10 have to have more of these since this is so 11 successful. So once again, thanks for your 12 participation and I think we'll have another 13 good day today. Thank you. 14 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Thank you, 15 Bill. Good morning, everyone. I am 16 Representative John Taylor, I represent the 17 community just north of here. And I am also 18 Chairman of the House Urban Affairs Committee, 19 and have been so for quite a few years. 20 One of the challenges of a Committee 21 Chairman is to prepare your committee members 22 and the entire House when any piece of 23 legislation or groups of legislation comes 24 before us. And one of our challenges is to 25 get the proper people in front of us to inform 18 2 us and to organize that. And that's very, 3 very difficult and a big challenge for our 4 staff. 5 But what we -- with John Dougherty, 6 he really has been able to put together here 7 with the folks we had to listen to yesterday 8 and today is incredible. And I, like many of 9 you, really didn't look forward to working my 10 entire weekend. However, I was very excited 11 about what we learned yesterday and couldn't 12 wait to get here this morning. 13 While it was alarming about what we 14 heard from PennDOT and the Delaware Valley 15 Regional Planning Commission and the Streets 16 Department about having absolutely no plan in 17 place, no adjustments are on the board, they 18 are behind on the projects they're ready to 19 build now, and the fact that there has been 20 very little, if any, discussion or formal 21 discussion was something that we certainly can 22 use I think, is a good reason why we need to 23 slow everything down. 24 And as alarming as that was, and 25 what was even more alarming was what the Water 19 2 Department and DEP had to say afterwards. We 3 think that the traffic planning is poor, wait 4 until you get into the water and sewer 5 problem. So we were very fortunate to have 6 that information. 7 As Bill was saying, we're all 8 playing around with the letter right now to 9 the Chairman of the Gaming Control Commission 10 as well as PennDOT. 11 I had a discussion on the way up 12 with Ed Goppelt from Hallwatch about, Don't 13 you wish you had done this earlier? And then 14 he says, Well, I guess this is how sometimes 15 this process works. And it's certainly how 16 the legislative process works, unfortunately. 17 Everything comes into a funnel and happens 18 real quick at the end. It's almost a military 19 type of model. 20 But as a result of this and some 21 other discussions we've had with community 22 leaders we are fully engaged and fully 23 prepared for this week to take 862, certainly 24 hold it up like we did last week, open it up 25 for amendments and try to put some common 20 2 sense provisions and take away the absolute 3 greed and arrogance of the casinos that was 4 put in this version of 862. And I'm confident 5 we're going to do that. 6 And I think not only are we going to 7 do that, we're going to go way further than 8 that. If they can legislate absolute details 9 and run over a community, we're going to try 10 to legislate details that give them some 11 rights right in the state legislation. So 12 that would be our challenge this week. But 13 our two days here have certainly helped us 14 prepare for that. 15 MR. LEVINS: Good morning, everyone. 16 My name is Rich Levins and I serve as a 17 volunteer as President and Chairman of the 18 Board of New Kensington Community Development 19 Corporation. 20 As many of you may know, New 21 Kensington CDC is involved in various 22 initiatives. We are involved in zoning, we 23 clean and maintain lots and brown fields. We 24 build moderate income housing and recently one 25 of the things we're most proud of is we were 21 2 able to get historic tax credits where we took 3 a five-story abandoned factory in East 4 Kensington and renovated it and we won the 5 prestigious Historic Preservation Award. 6 My hope that in this symposium and 7 other initiatives is that, I'm sure most of 8 you have visited Old City at one time, visited 9 the Schuylkill River water front or visited 10 the Parkway and at one point said to 11 yourselves, Wow, these people who put this 12 together, planned this, these visionaries 13 really did it right. And my hope is that in 14 2015 or 2020 that, you know, people who visit 15 the water front will have the same reaction 16 and say, Wow, the people involved in this, the 17 leadership at that time really did it right. 18 And I know there's no such thing as 19 perfection, but ultimately I hope that the 20 water front -- and I recognize it will not 21 just be recreation, it will be residential, it 22 will need to be commercial as Representative 23 Keller said, but a perfect blend of all three 24 I think is the ultimate goal that all of us 25 will be satisfied with. 22 2 MR. SHALLCROSS: Thank you, Rich. 3 I'm Herb Shallcross, President of 4 the Fishtown Neighbor Association. We 5 facilitate communications between the 6 neighbors in our area and city agencies such 7 as the Zoning Board of Adjustment. 8 Everyone -- well, I have known for 9 25 years that the expectation was that 10 Fishtown would be gentrified, it would be 11 developed. The obvious potential of plans 12 east of Delaware Avenue, east of I-95 and 13 Fishtown has been obvious for 25 years. Now, 14 that development logjam is broken. The 25 15 years people could have been spending to lay 16 the underpinnings for that development have 17 been wasted. There's really no comprehensive 18 plan for anything there. 19 We're here to talk about 20 infrastructure. You heard from people from 21 the Water Department. I'm not an engineer, 22 it's not really my area, but if you look at 23 the telephone, the electric power, cable, 24 television service in Fishtown, it's almost 25 all on poles above ground. For 40 years 23 2 communities have been getting away from that. 3 And, you know, the opportunity to do that has 4 been wasted. 5 Now, it's very exciting that we come 6 here. We have to get on top of this. It's a 7 clean slate. And everyone let the dollar be 8 made inscripted on your corner of that clean 9 piece of paper. Because no one's laying out, 10 though, any overall design or picture, and 11 that has to take place now. 12 MR. RUBEN: Hi, my name is Matt 13 Ruben, I'm with the Northern Liberties 14 Neighborhood Association. I'm also a 15 co-convener of the North Delaware Casino Unity 16 Coalition which consists of a large number of 17 civic groups up and down the river, represent 18 and serve approximately 200,000 taxpayers. 19 And we are part of a movement that's happening 20 along the river and elsewhere in the city 21 recently to increase the attention on 22 planning. 23 We have initiated our own 24 neighborhood plan that we completed last year. 25 We've initiated an addendum covering the water 24 2 front in our neck of the woods. And other 3 civic associations, including New Kensington 4 CDC, are also undertaking their own planning 5 initiatives because there has been a really 6 palling vacuum not really in the will to do 7 plans in this city, although that's part of 8 it, and really no political will to implement 9 them and make them have teeth. 10 There is a Planning Commission plan 11 for the river front. It's, I believe, 24 12 years old so it's out of date at this point. 13 But it was done. And have been other visions 14 articulated by public and private entities in 15 intervening years, but there's been no 16 political will to coordinate these and get 17 them done. 18 And I think we're as, and others 19 have said, I think we're really at a place 20 where we need to get those things implemented, 21 not only to do plans right, but we also just 22 need to do them. And I hope that meetings 23 like this can be a spur to break the apathy 24 that has prevented us from getting things done 25 for our river front. 25 2 And I don't know if it's fitting or 3 not that the, apparently the casinos who were 4 supposed to be represented here this afternoon 5 have pulled out, because any plan that's going 6 to happen for the river front is going to have 7 to happen around casinos. Because I can't 8 imagine a worse planning idea than putting big 9 boxes with no windows on a river. 10 So I think we're facing real 11 challenges of planning around what's already 12 on the river and what's already planned for 13 the river. But I still think that there are 14 opportunities remaining for us to preserve a 15 lot of what we need to preserve about the 16 river and make it a truly mixed use and 17 publicly open area. 18 MR. DOUGHERTY: Thank you. 19 What we'll do is, again, just if 20 you're comfortable with it, we will treat this 21 as if it's a round table and we're just having 22 cross talk. Just raise your hand. And, 23 again, if you're comfortable, identify your 24 name, purely for the stenographer, so we know 25 who said what. 26 2 What I'd like to do is start off 3 with City Planning. And I know that Kevin 4 Greenberg, who is the Law Department's 5 representative on the gaming and water front 6 development process, he's on a little bit of a 7 time frame here. 8 So Dave, I'd like to start off with 9 just asking you, earlier this week the Mayor 10 outlined a plan for the Delaware River Front, 11 Penn Praxis is the lead group here, could you 12 just explain the role here of the Planning 13 Commission in that process and what your 14 understanding of what occurred this week? 15 MR. KNAPTON: Very briefly, and I'll 16 pass this on to Kevin, who is with me here. 17 My name is David Knapton. Is this 18 going to be too loud? Am I booming you out? 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: Not at all. 20 MR. KNAPTON: The Mayor's executive 21 order, which Kevin will describe, enumerates a 22 set of tasks, the leadership of the Executive 23 Director of the City Planning Commission, to 24 study the water front and come up with 25 recommendations. And there are all sorts of a 27 2 deadlines, the drop dead date in 2009. 3 This is important, not the date, but 4 the action. The comprehensive water front 5 plan. Matt Ruben mentioned a 24 year ago set 6 of studies which are still good documents of 7 the entire water front from Poquessing Creek 8 all the way around the Delaware and up the 9 Schuylkill up to Flatrock Dam and past there 10 to River Road in the northwest. These were 11 done with state money to study water front 12 assets and so on. This was done in the early 13 eighties, 1980 to 1984. 14 And those documents, good as they 15 were, separate the city into separate 16 districts. And the unintentional result of 17 that is that people tend to think about one 18 section, another section and not relate them. 19 So for example, the Delaware water front is 20 North Delaware, Central River Front, South 21 Delaware, three different plans with, to my 22 mind, arbitrary boundaries between one section 23 and the next. 24 In the defense of the planners, I 25 was there at the time, you can say, well, you 28 2 can't do it all at once, you do have to have 3 some workable way to divvy things up. I'm 4 going to step back just for a moment before 5 passing this on to Kevin and talk about, 6 though, the impact of dividing things up. 7 The city was first designed and 8 founded by William Penn in 1683, not with an 9 ideal plan, a grid on totally clear ground. 10 And you all know the story, you have all heard 11 it in school, about the five squares and the 12 street grid and so on and so forth. This has 13 an impact on the water front because that's an 14 east-west orientation. It's an ideal plan in 15 which the water front is only part. 16 And I think we all know the reality 17 of the ideal, of the real side, is that from 18 the 1600s onward the city developed on the 19 water front, not in -- only incidentally in 20 William Penn's mind. So the places like Old 21 Swedes Church, which antedate William Penn, or 22 streets coming down to the river, Germantown 23 Avenue coming down or Poplar Street from the 24 north or Christian Street and Carpenter Street 25 in the south. All way antedate things like 29 2 Rittenhouse Square. 3 So that's the real side of 4 Philadelphia growth. And it grew along the 5 water front. And we've seen the same thing in 6 the present day where we've made -- the city 7 has made great plans for Penn's Landing and 8 decade after decade has revised the plans for 9 Penn's Landing, part of the William Penn grid 10 of Center City, not the whole harbor. 11 And in the meantime, with the 12 development of Christopher Columbus Boulevard 13 and the repaving, lots and lots of development 14 north and south of Penn's Landing, 15 irrespective of whatever the Planning 16 Commission has said in 1970 and 1980 and so 17 forth. 18 So I'm telling you this long story, 19 which you know, because it's important as a 20 way of thinking, well, how are we going to 21 deal with the new phenomenon of casinos as 22 well as low interest rates and tax abatements 23 taking such an incentive to develop anywhere 24 in the city and especially along the great 25 wide road such as Christopher Columbus 30 2 Boulevard. Anywhere from Port Richmond and 3 St. Ann's Church on Allegheny Avenue down to 4 the wharf, down to south, say, Oregon Avenue. 5 And that becomes, to my mind, a unitary kind 6 of district, not something to be separated out 7 as separate parcels. 8 This very important point for the 9 south water front and also for the north of 10 specialized port facilities in making sure 11 those are as modern as possible. But that, 12 given that mileage that I've just enunciated 13 from Lehigh to Oregon Avenue, it's clearly 14 mileage enough for everybody to play. 15 Okay, that's the background comment 16 I want to make. And I'll pass it on to Kevin. 17 MR. GREENBERG: Thank you, Dave. 18 Before I start I just want to 19 commend John and frankly all the 20 Representatives for spending their time and 21 their efforts to set this process up. 22 I've only been involved with 23 planning along the Delaware River for about a 24 year and-a-half now since I started working on 25 the gaming project for the city, Gaming Task 31 2 Force. And the amount of development in that 3 year-and-a-half has been astounding. The 4 growth and plans that are coming for the next 5 year-and-a-half is even more astounding. And 6 the need for this symposium, this type of 7 effort is manifest, which is a large part of 8 why the Mayor issued the executive order this 9 week that he did. 10 Throughout the process of gaming, 11 first in meetings convened by Councilman 12 DiCicco with Matt and Herb and Bernadette and 13 all the folks who were represented in this 14 room -- well, first we did it as a task force 15 ourselves, and then with councilmen went out 16 to the community groups to try to find out 17 what they were doing in terms of open 18 discussions with the casino applicants. And 19 that led to a sense of involvement on my part 20 when we hopefully roll this out with other 21 people as a certain Delaware order. 22 What the Mayor did this week -- and 23 I'll just touch on that briefly before I would 24 like to say a couple things to the 25 Representatives on 862 on behalf of the city 32 2 and on my own behalf as well. What he did 3 this week was to set forth a process where 4 we're going to get a comprehensive master plan 5 for the Delaware from Allegheny south to 6 Oregon. 7 The Mayor's vision on this is very 8 clear. And the reason we picked those 9 boundaries simply is because other plans, and 10 relatively recent plans, were placed above 11 Allegheny and then in between the port and 12 PIDC below Oregon. So our attempt is to try 13 to fill the gap in plans that have been done 14 this decade. 15 And the Mayor set forth a series of 16 reasons for him doing so and I'm just going to 17 touch on them real briefly. Excuse me if I 18 walk down them. 19 First, obviously, the New River City 20 Initiative is how we're talking about what's 21 happening on the water. But as we all know, 22 this is not only an issue of the city, but 23 something that's been driven by market forces 24 and we're working with them. 25 The 24-year city plan was developed 33 2 and the need for the new plan to include 3 residents, businesses and frankly the broader 4 public interest of folks who want to use the 5 water front to have access to open space, 6 whether you live one block from the river, as 7 many of you do, or 20 blocks, as I do, the 8 idea is that all folks in the city want to get 9 access to this beautiful river and use this 10 river front. And to include them with that, 11 the fact that we're going to have this 12 commercial development. And we need to do 13 that. 14 So what the Mayor set up was a 15 program that has two components -- three 16 components, the first of which is Penn Praxis, 17 a consultant for whom we have identified 18 probable funding. It's foundation type 19 funding, but it's not going to be done until 20 it's done with the foundation's support. But 21 the city is going to backsoft that as 22 necessary to do a plan, create a master plan 23 that will be directed by the other two 24 components of this, which are the Advisory 25 Group as a whole group, and then a Steering 34 2 Committee within that group. 3 And to those boards the Mayor 4 generally appointed the various stakeholders 5 who live here, but not the interest groups and 6 trade groups, be they business or labor, who 7 we expect will be forming this process 8 throughout. It is dominated by community 9 folks and community business associations and 10 local representatives with the Planning 11 Commission as the lead for both the Advisory 12 Group and the Steering Committee. 13 And within that Advisory Group there 14 is going to be a Steering Committee of nine 15 people. Only two of whom are representatives 16 of the City, Planning Director and the 17 Commerce Director. The other seven members 18 are going to come essentially from the 19 community. 20 We were told one of them is going to 21 be a District Council Member. There's going 22 to be one representative of the Business 23 District, be it Center City District, Head 24 House Square, South Street or Old City. One 25 representative from the Chamber of Commerce. 35 2 Three representatives from community 3 groups which we have designated the community 4 groups themselves get to select from amongst 5 their leaders, which the only thing the city 6 has asked is that you pick geographically 7 diverse representatives. Well, and we also 8 want folks who can give their time as 9 necessary. But our only requirement is that 10 within this area they pick geographically 11 diverse representatives. But we expect the 12 communities to pick their own folks. 13 Same things goes for the business 14 district, for that matter. One City Council 15 Member from the two District Council Members, 16 Councilman Clark, Councilman DiCicco, who 17 represent this area, notice to the Commerce 18 Director. 19 Those groups will do what they need 20 to do to meet, they will report and we have 21 said that every one of their meetings will be 22 open to the public, everyone. We want this to 23 be a full buy-in process that really speaks 24 for the neighborhood. 25 Because this plan, as Mr. Dougherty 36 2 indicated, is only as good as what -- the 3 Mayor has only got a year and-a-half left, 4 this plan is only as good as the plan is good. 5 If the plan is good it will live and it will 6 send and it will last well into the next 7 administration. And the next Mayor, whoever 8 it may be, will walk in and look at this plan 9 and say, This is a plan that I want my 10 Planning Commission to adopt, and it's a plan 11 that I want my Commerce Director to promote 12 and I want my neighborhoods and my Managing 13 Director and my neighborhood offices to 14 promote. And I want to make this plan real. 15 And that's our goal here, is to have 16 it be a plan of the neighborhood and of the 17 city's needs, be they commercial, be they 18 infrastructure or whatever. And that's sort 19 of where we're going on that. 20 The one problem we have with this 21 plan, frankly, in our process is that it's on 22 a time line that while we hope to have it done 23 in the next 12 months, that's not fast enough 24 for gaming because the state has dictated to 25 us what's happening and when. So towards that 37 2 end, the city is doing what we can to be ready 3 for gaming. 4 And frankly, I think we are doing 5 better than anybody else in the state has 6 done. We have a Commercial Entertainment 7 District Zoning Board now that lays it out 8 what we think needs to happen to make this 9 work for the communities. And it's a new 10 zoning bill that is specific to gaming. 11 We at the Philadelphia Gaming 12 Advisory Task Force which produced a 479-page 13 report, I was proud to be part of the process, 14 www.phila.gov/gamingadvisory, if you haven't 15 seen it, it's there. And it lays out exactly 16 the issues including the water and sewers, 17 including the traffic, that we knew the city 18 was going to face. We published that a year 19 ago this month and it's been out there. And 20 we would urge the Representatives to use that 21 as a club as necessary on 862 because we are 22 ready. 23 The Mayor did not support or oppose 24 gaming. He did not pick to have it come here. 25 That was done for us by the state. But he is 38 2 committed that if it comes, and it is coming, 3 that we are going to be ready to do it right. 4 And we're going to be able to do it right in a 5 way that works for our communities and our 6 neighborhoods. And that's our agenda here. 7 And that's what the Commercial 8 Entertainment bill does. And that's what 862 9 cuts right at the heart out. It targets 10 Philadelphia without justification and goes 11 right after us. And frankly, we don't quite 12 understand the reason. There doesn't seem to 13 be a good reason. 14 Because we are ready to make gaming 15 come in and make it work, we've established a 16 process that will allow gaming to happen fast 17 without the perennial ZBA hearing process. 18 We've created a forum for public input into 19 the plans. But once they're approved there 20 are not appeals. It's an as-of-right permit. 21 There's no ZBA appeal from that right. 22 Then there's -- you know, I don't 23 know if Mr. Dougherty went through the whole 24 list of things that are wrong with the bill, 25 I'm not going to do that here. But just to 39 2 say the city believes that this bill in its 3 current form, the preemption language, all of 4 the Philadelphia charting language is just 5 patently absurd or unacceptable. We are ready 6 to do it right. We are better ready than any 7 other community in the state. 8 Frankly, we're better ready than any 9 community that's ever not had gaming, but know 10 when it's coming. Nobody else has ever got a 11 report like we've used. That report's being 12 used as a textbook by gaming professionals in 13 Nevada this year. So we're ready for this and 14 we intend to do our part and we hope you can 15 sell your colleagues on that. 16 And with that, I'll turn it over to 17 Ron. 18 MR. DOUGHERTY: Ron, why don't you 19 just hold up and we're going to talk a little 20 bit more about development, if you don't mind. 21 We'd like to stay on the Planning Commission 22 the water front, the new initiative at Penn 23 Praxis. If we can hear some questions from 24 people in the audience, there's some questions 25 at the table. 40 2 MR. PATTERSON: John, I'll be able 3 to give you my view of how I think this 4 legislation will work and how it takes the 5 specific group and the community right out of 6 it. 7 MR. DOUGHERTY: Okay. And there's a 8 couple other later -- we have a list of 9 questions. People just want to -- you know, 10 people are here just to understand the process 11 too. You've represented community groups and 12 you've also represented large developers. So 13 you can explain how the process develops and 14 who's involved and, you know, the formulas, 15 the appeal process, the Commonwealth core 16 process, the whole nine yards. 17 On this, the Planning Commission, 18 just to follow-up to my initial question, what 19 exactly does the Planning Commission see its 20 role? Will you be lead position or just part 21 of a support team for Penn Praxis? 22 MR. KNAPTON: Well, the lead 23 partner -- 24 MR. DOUGHERTY: I'll call them P 25 squared from here on in. 41 2 MR. KNAPTON: The lead partner, the 3 executive director, will be the chairperson of 4 both the Steering Committee and the broader 5 Advisory Committee. 6 So in terms of the momentum, keeping 7 things moving, knowing deadlines, reminding 8 people of the importance of key topics, it's 9 fair to say that that person who is the lead 10 person will help to shape the way in which 11 everybody's opinions together are grouped and 12 expressed. 13 And also we're looking for a 14 deadline. So part of the lead position job is 15 simply going to be meet deadlines. Woody 16 Allen made a joke about that, but it's really 17 very serious about, you know, being there. 18 Absence is a loss, absence or meet failing 19 deadlines. I'm being very general because at 20 this point the tasks and the goals aren't out 21 there. So you can see why. 22 MR. GREENBERG: One of the key 23 components in how we set up this executive 24 order, that the Steering Committee gets to 25 steer and advise this process. And one of the 42 2 things now that we've announced this group on 3 Thursday is that fairly shortly, probably this 4 week, the Planning Commissioner will be 5 reaching out to the various groups to convene 6 them, allow the neighborhood groups to select 7 their own representatives to the Steering 8 Committees and how we get there. But the idea 9 is to let that group dictate the process 10 entirely. 11 We know this has to happen within 12 12 months. Praxis has a general work order but 13 they want to know specifics. And frankly, 14 they have been directed by the Mayor and they 15 will be directed by the folks who fund them to 16 follow the lead of this community-dominated 17 Advisory Group and Steering Committee. 18 And the reason we pick the Steering 19 Committee is you need a group of seven or nine 20 or 11 or whatever people, it's nine we picked 21 in this case, to manage day to day what's 22 going on. You've got lots of leaders who are 23 involved, but we want them to have a smaller 24 group they can go to with every little 25 question. And now we've got that group, or we 43 2 will have it once they're picked. 3 But the idea is to let that group 4 tell them what their little steps in the 5 process are. We told them they have to have 6 public hearings and you have to make public 7 input. Where you hold them, how you hold 8 them, frankly that's the kind of thing we want 9 the Steering Committee, which is going to be 10 community-dominated, to select. 11 MR. DOUGHERTY: In your opinion is 12 this something along the lines of the North 13 Delaware plan, the New River City plan? 14 MR. KNAPTON: I'll give two 15 examples, the North Delaware being one, in 16 which a plan for a long distance area starting 17 in Bridesburg and going up was reviewed by 18 technicians and reviewed by every community 19 group and elected officials. 20 The other example is an urban design 21 study on the Schuylkill River, not on the 22 Delaware, but fairly recently with the 23 underwriting of the Schuylkill River 24 Development Corporation. And that was a kind 25 of a visioning process of looking at our 44 2 Schuylkill from basically Bartram's Gardens to 3 the mouth of the Schuylkill. And allowing a 4 lot of people from a lot of different parts of 5 the community on either side of the Schuylkill 6 River to come and have input on what they 7 thought they wanted to see and what would be 8 the impact of what they asked for. 9 So that consultant then gave three 10 very broad pictures, three very broad 11 scenarios. I'm not going to go into detail on 12 that, that's not today's meeting. But the 13 point is, the mandate to that consultant and 14 the product that we got as an end result was 15 very useful. It was a reflection of public 16 sentiment and it turned that public sentiment 17 into, well, what are the costs for these 18 various options? 19 I think that's one of the kind of 20 products we can expect from the Penn Praxis 21 process. I think I can say that even without 22 having, you know, a document and working plans 23 and so forth in hand. 24 MR. GREENBERG: I would also add, 25 the seven of you are all members or your 45 2 associations can select members to serve on 3 this committee. So a lot of what the shade of 4 this committee is is going to be set by what 5 you want. 6 MR. DOUGHERTY: For example, the 7 North Delaware plan, they had a provision in 8 it, they were not-profit for land acquisition. 9 Do you foresee something like that coming out 10 of this? 11 MR. KNAPTON: Any number of kinds of 12 land acquisition might be entertained. For 13 example, we've used urban renewal process. 14 Now the state law has altered that very 15 recently. But for this purpose a lot of land 16 along the water front is already in black 17 certified areas so we can already use existing 18 ordinance for that. 19 MR. GREENBERG: I would also add 20 that Penn Praxis's work plan includes 21 implementation phase that they're going to 22 recommend. And given what we've all heard 23 over the last year along the water front, I 24 think it's safe to say that we all assume some 25 form of non-profit or some sort of other 46 2 entity or include the expansion of these 3 existing entities or some sort of structure 4 along those lines will be adopted. 5 But again, this is where we think 6 that there needs to be some entity, but the 7 exact shape and composition and how it's 8 developed needs to be created through this 9 process. And the hope is that guided by the 10 advisory group Penn Praxis will recommend 11 something that sometime in 2007 we can make 12 real. 13 MR. DOUGHERTY: State Representative 14 John Taylor. 15 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Thank you, 16 John. 17 Kev, and to you and the Mayor, good 18 luck with that process. We'll be glad to 19 participate. But good luck over 12 months. I 20 hope you don't get the same reaction as I got 21 and the District Councilman got on Thursday 22 when the very groups you're talking about 23 threw out the District Councilman out of the 24 meeting and tried to throw me out of the 25 meeting. So the open transparent process is 47 2 required, and we're doing something. But when 3 the community groups want to have their own 4 thing without any elected officials in the 5 room, it's pretty worse. 6 I'll just make another editorial 7 comment that you said that the city is well 8 prepared to have the ability to go ahead and 9 move forward with the Zoning Board of 10 Adjustments, et cetera. If they had that 11 power, let's hope that that would not be as 12 abused as it has been in the past. Let's hope 13 we don't have this crazy archaic system where 14 the District Councilman has total veto power 15 over anything that's done. 16 So there is a history in why at 17 least the legislature has decided to do that. 18 As I said in the last week based on the latest 19 arrogant bite that was taken out on 862, that, 20 you know, if I have a shot at giving you 21 zoning back, I will. However, it has to be 22 done the way it's supposed to be done, the way 23 it's laid out in the code and things and not 24 with these defacto processes that are used. 25 So all we're doing if we used the process that 48 2 we've always used, is take it out of the 3 Gaming Board and putting it in the hands of 4 one Councilman. 5 MR. GREENBERG: That, sir, is why 6 with Councilman DiCicco's help, in fact, we -- 7 the Gaming Task Force back last year when we 8 were looking at this issue, drafted a proposed 9 Commercial Entertainment District ordinance, 10 with the Planning and Law Department's help, 11 amongst others, that would create a specific 12 process for large scale entertainment 13 projects. 14 There really weren't -- you know, 15 I'm the president of a civic association, and 16 again, when some guy wants to build a fence a 17 little bit higher than it is, you don't want 18 to have all the Council involved, you need a 19 point person. 20 But this is not that. This is 21 something larger. And our process with this 22 was to put the Planning Commission in that 23 spot, the one who sort of makes the 24 recommendation and go directly to Council. 25 This bill, this Commercial 49 2 Entertainment District Ordinance, which became 3 law in March, is only targeting those large 4 scale developments. And through a process 5 that has community input, but at the front 6 end. 7 And frankly, I'm happy to give you 8 as much information as you want tomorrow, I'll 9 give you my card before I leave, call me, 10 we'll work with you so you have the 11 information about what we got in law here in 12 Philadelphia. 13 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Oh, I have 14 that. What I would like to ask all three, 15 actually, if Ron wants to chime in here, if 16 any of you have completely absorbed 862 in its 17 present form to explain to this panel the role 18 of the Commercial Development District or 19 Commercial Entertainment District, that it's 20 been sort of incorporated into the bill. Is 21 it? Isn't it? Is it? I know it's law in 22 Philadelphia. It sort of absorbed it into the 23 Gaming Commission process, but not really. 24 So I would like from a legal point 25 of view what you think the effect of that is 50 2 and how strictly it is under the current 3 version of that bill that the Gaming Board 4 would have to adhere to that or not adhere to 5 that. 6 MR. PATTERSON: I think the key -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Maybe just 8 for the audience go through that again, if you 9 would, about how that's a part of it. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Sure. I mean, I 11 don't know all the particulars, but I think 12 the key is whether the input from the Steering 13 Committee is binding. I represent developers 14 but I also come from a civic background. And, 15 you know, when you do these large scale 16 developments, pretty much half of what you're 17 looking at, if you have any kind of 18 conscience, is what the impacts are on the 19 public health, safety, welfare and traffic. 20 And there's certain uses that even 21 the legislature has deemed that require 22 additional consideration. And they're under a 23 group of regulated uses under the Zoning Code 24 which has things like massage parlors, pawn 25 shops, pool halls, go-go bars, which the 51 2 legislature has determined that these uses 3 bring secondary impacts around in the 4 neighborhood with increased crime, 5 prostitution, drugs, et cetera, that they then 6 send to the Zoning Board. 7 And whether that's good or bad. But 8 it gives the -- going to the Zoning Board is a 9 public forum and gives the opportunity of 10 neighbors and civic groups and elected 11 officials to voice their opinion. And if it 12 doesn't meet those standards the Board can 13 deny the applications. 14 So with that said, you know, this 15 legislation to me takes all that public 16 process, for the most part, out of the hands 17 of the neighborhood groups and the civic 18 groups and rests it with the legislature, of 19 course. But I think with the Steering 20 Committee it would have to be binding what 21 their comments are, what their opinions are. 22 And I gave you one example. Where I 23 lived in Southwest Philly the U.S. Postal 24 Service was relocated. And while they met 25 with us about what our concerns were, we 52 2 really just got lip service. We had a 3 Steering Committee. In the end they vote 4 their sovereign immunity in saying, well, 5 we're the federal government, we don't have to 6 follow or get any permits or approvals. 7 So our concerns about traffic and 8 impact, noise, lighting, et cetera, they 9 pretty much ignored. And so we were inundated 10 with 60,000 truck trips a week of tractor 11 trailers and delivery trucks going in and out 12 of the postal service. 13 So, again, I think what it comes 14 back to is whatever the input is has to be 15 binding. 16 MR. GREENBERG: Representative, I 17 think that's a story that's being told a lot, 18 is that they have adopted the provisions of a 19 Commercial Entertainment District. And with 20 two very limited examples, it's just not true. 21 Let me walk through what we would 22 call sort of the high points of the 23 development, the rules that we created for the 24 Commercial Entertainment District and I'll 25 tell you what they do on the current version 53 2 of 862. 3 Actually, to be fair, I don't know 4 if this is the version of it if there was any 5 amendments on Thursday. But the version as of 6 Wednesday, was the last time I looked at it. 7 I don't think anything's changed. 8 Regulated uses that Ron was talking 9 about, we prohibit regulated uses, strip 10 clubs, massage parlors, whatever, with two 11 exceptions which are video game arcades and 12 pool halls, which we felt while they're 13 regulated uses under the code are appropriate 14 for casinos. Regulated uses are completely 15 allowed under the new rules. And in fact, the 16 existing city rules prohibiting regulated uses 17 are struck. 18 Billboards. We have rules that 19 allowed them to have on-site limited 20 billboards. A lot of billboards still, I 21 mean, because it's a casino and you want to 22 promote it. But they were limited in size, 23 they could not be flashing, they could not be 24 neon, they could not be illuminated, they 25 could not be rotating. 54 2 For the four casino sites along the 3 river they were limited to 20 feet above the 4 roof line, I believe it was 30 feet in the 5 last version, but a limited high above the 6 roof line. 7 MR. PATTERSON: I guess that's so 8 you could view it from I-95. 9 MR. GREENBERG: So you could view it 10 from I-95, you could view it from the bridges. 11 But at the same time we didn't want to 12 obstruct the views of the whole community and 13 all the highrises housed on the water. I 14 mean, we didn't want them to become towering 15 behemoths. And we also said that they could 16 do -- could not be rotated, illuminated and 17 they had to be accessory, which means they had 18 to advertise the casino. 19 What the state law -- what 862 now 20 says is this, they basically increased by five 21 the amount of billboard signage they could 22 have, which is above what we thought was a 23 very generous allotment. 24 They specifically allow illuminated, 25 flashing, animated and neon signs. So we're 55 2 talking about Las Vegas type signs. They 3 allow non-accessory signs, which means you can 4 have illuminated, flashing, neon signs for 5 something that's not the casino. Plus the guy 6 who happens to own the casino can make a lot 7 of money selling signs on his roof. 8 And there's absolutely no height 9 limit on those signs. Although, we did have 10 that on Delaware. We did not before the Trump 11 site location because we didn't think there 12 was a public purpose to allow access to the 13 river in terms of use the way there is down 14 here up there. But near the river we thought 15 that was appropriate so we did that. 16 Parking. We had initially said four 17 spots for every five gaming spots. Four 18 parking spaces for every five gaming spots. 19 And this is -- the last version of 862, this 20 is the change they adopted to meet our 21 standards. They went from one every ten to 22 four for every -- to eight for every ten. But 23 that's what the industry wants. 24 We picked eight for ten because the 25 industry says this is what we need on site to 56 2 avoid sending cars through the neighborhood. 3 We want that. So since the industry wants it, 4 we were willing to do that because that made 5 sense. Like I said, we don't want these cars 6 in the neighborhood, that is one provision 7 that is matched in this new version. 8 Height. We had a limit on height. 9 It wasn't -- I mean, it wasn't a small limit, 10 it was 200 feet. I mean, it wasn't like we 11 were being absurd here. But you would need a 12 variance if you wanted to go above 200 feet. 13 That's gone in 862. 14 Lot coverage. We had said that they 15 could only cover 70 percent of the lot. 862 16 says 80 percent. That's better than 100 17 percent they had in the last version of 862, 18 but it's still not there. 70 percent is a lot 19 higher than what we have. 20 And just for a real quick thing on 21 lot coverage, because these are river front 22 properties all of the water will drain, to the 23 extent they cover the lot, into the Delaware 24 River. Which means all of our measures and 25 all of our efforts to handle that water will 57 2 not be applied. 3 And because the City of Philadelphia 4 is treated as a single whole, to the extent 5 that these casinos are allowed to have massive 6 runoff into the river that's untreated and has 7 a lot of particulates in it, the burden on 8 every other non-casino in Philadelphia will be 9 higher. Every business up and down this river 10 is going to feel the obligation to make up, 11 they're going to have to do better than they 12 already do to make up for the casinos. 13 We talked about signs. 14 Streets and civil engineering. It 15 used to be that we controlled -- we wanted to 16 have, through the zoning process, a traffic 17 management plan so we could look at what 18 intersections does traffic from the properties 19 were flowing in and out. That's something of 20 an issue at Foxwoods. It's more of an issue 21 on the North Delaware where you don't want an 22 entrance to be right at Spring Garden Street 23 where you get some funny turns. Or you get up 24 to Foxwoods where you wouldn't want it to be 25 at the base of the ramp and you would have 58 2 some funny turns. You want to do some 3 dedicated -- you want to figure out how to do 4 it right. 5 We don't have that authority to say, 6 You do this, You don't do this. We didn't 7 want to veto it, we just wanted to make sure 8 they were living up to their plans. 9 Set backs. In our version in the 10 CED there is a front, rear, side set backs. 11 There's a requirement for vegetative border 12 next to residential districts. Now there is a 13 front set back of ten feet rather than 30. 14 Access to the water up and down the 15 Delaware. We had said there should be a 50 16 foot path, 30 feet for pedestrians and 20 feet 17 for bikes. It is now down to 30 feet -- down 18 to 20 feet, sorry. We had also, with the 19 current version of the fixed bill that's in 20 Council, which is pending, said that for some 21 spots along the Delaware you could drop down 22 to 20 feet if the geography for the way the 23 river bends or whatever, you need to do some 24 things, the Planning Commission would have 25 that authority. They just made it 20 feet 59 2 throughout. 3 And finally, there's no landscaping 4 plan. Also missing from this are some things 5 that are in that fixed bill. For example, we 6 want to mandate that all trash must be stored 7 inside. That is gone. 8 So there's a whole series of things 9 that our plan -- and, frankly, how we got this 10 bill is we've drafted one we liked. But then 11 we sat down with the casino operators, we sat 12 down with the neighborhood groups and said 13 tell us what you think. We haven't taken all 14 of their suggestions from either group, but 15 every casino operator has bought in, every 16 neighborhood group has bought in. And in 17 fact, four of the five casinos operators have 18 told us their plans are currently compliant 19 with 98 percent of the CED, with the exception 20 of this area where the river bends, which is 21 one of the things we're fixing. 22 So we aren't quite sure why this is 23 going to be a problem because they're already 24 building to our code. 25 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Well, Kevin, 60 2 here's our dilemma. As we are trying to make 3 862 better we have Senator Fumo saying that, 4 oh, they just did tremendous benefit to the 5 community by what they put in 862 as it 6 pertains to the Commercial Entertainment 7 District. You would disagree with that? 8 MR. GREENBERG: I won't comment on 9 Senator Fumo. 10 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: I'm not 11 asking you to comment on Senator Fumo. I want 12 you to just -- what I thought you said, that 13 what they put in with regard to the Commercial 14 Entertainment District in 862 does not give 15 you more control, but rather much less? 16 MR. GREENBERG: Absolutely, with the 17 exception of parking and lot coverage where 18 they have come very close to what we have, but 19 not -- but didn't get there completely. 20 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: So, I mean, 21 that's what we're battling in the media where 22 it's being spun that 862 is a good government 23 and gave everything that the city already 24 wants is put in that bill, what are you 25 complaining about? We're just going to get 61 2 the casino -- the Gaming Control Commission to 3 adopt the Commercial Entertainment District 4 and proceed. And that's not true, right? 5 MR. GREENBERG: In my expert opinion 6 you have stated it correctly. 7 MR. PATTERSON: How is the city's 8 version -- excuse me -- enforced or appealed 9 if the application or the design doesn't match 10 the criteria? 11 MR. GREENBERG: If the application 12 or design -- 13 MR. DOUGHERTY: Excuse me, Kevin. 14 That was a very interesting 15 question. I don't know if you heard that one. 16 Would you take your time, Ron, and say that 17 into the mike, please. 18 MR. PATTERSON: Sure. My question 19 was, if the design, the development design 20 does not meet the city's criteria as stated 21 how is it enforced and what is the appeal 22 process both from the developer's angle, 23 excuse me, and the civic group neighborhood 24 angle? 25 MR. GREENBERG: Under the CED 62 2 process right now as it stands -- well, let me 3 tell you, the Zoning Code right now, as you 4 know, Ron, prohibits gambling because gambling 5 has never been a legal activity. It's one of 6 those prohibited uses that you just can't 7 build any place in the city. The CED has 8 created an exception to that rule which are 9 the CED Districts. In the absence of a CED 10 District you couldn't get a zoning permit for 11 a gambling hall, couldn't get a use of 12 occupancy certificate. 13 MR. PATTERSON: So this establishes 14 a new zoning district. 15 MR. GREENBERG: It created its own 16 classification. And then you create -- within 17 that classification you apply to a new zoning 18 district. And that CED District which you now 19 create gambling is a permitted use. And you 20 get an over the counter permit. In the 21 absence of compliance with that, which 22 requires a hearing through the Planning 23 Commission and their evaluation and evaluation 24 by Streets and evaluation by Water, all of 25 which then goes to City Council which adopts 63 2 or rejects. 3 Once Council adopts -- and the 4 public has a lot of input through that 5 process. Once Council as a whole, and not a 6 single councilman, once Council as a whole 7 adopts that initiative it's an over the 8 counter permit and it's ready -- and there's 9 no appeal from that permit by either group. 10 If Council -- it's like a city overlay, it's 11 an overlay. I mean, we created a district 12 where this is an as-of-right permit. So if 13 Council does not do it, then obviously you 14 have PZB. 15 MR. DOUGHERTY: The gaming use and 16 all its related issues then become right? 17 MR. GREENBERG: If you got a CED 18 District and -- yes. 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: The focus, okay, 20 let's stay on that, let's not miss that point, 21 okay. So the Entertainment District, okay, 22 the minute the Entertainment District is 23 approved, basically the gaming and all its 24 related entities are by right from there, at 25 that point on? 64 2 MR. GREENBERG: Within the envelope 3 that's permitted in the district, yes. 4 MR. DOUGHERTY: The object, okay, is 5 that sometimes we can't or we don't want to 6 slow down the process. Okay. But in this 7 case there's so many issues -- we have one 8 gentleman faced social issues that go along 9 with it. 10 There's the Senate bill that some of 11 our brothers and sisters in the labor movement 12 that are here today, if you don't read that 13 and you don't know who the players are you 14 have no idea that the same people who own 15 Foxwoods have some other associated entities 16 that own the land in which Wal-Mart and some 17 of them other places are. So that if you 18 continue to move the casino down, okay, 19 there's some discussions about moving the 20 Wal-marts and the some of the other places 21 down further, starts to affect the livelihood 22 of the I.L.A., okay. 23 And there are things, there are 24 things that, you know, that we're just 25 starting to digest here. And I don't want 65 2 everyone in the room to automatically think 3 because Senate bill 862 is so bad that the 4 casino entertainment district is the answer to 5 all the woes. Because basically from a 6 neighborhood point of view, the minute you 7 have that district in place, okay, I mean, the 8 gaming automatically becomes by right. 9 MR. GREENBERG: Well, yeah. The 10 idea, John, in terms of tailoring the 11 districts so that we would put the districts 12 essentially the size of the plot that's 13 brought to us. So to talk about the Foxwoods 14 site, the Wal-mart properties wouldn't be part 15 of the district unless through the Planning 16 Commission process, which is a public hearing 17 process, and through City Council, which has a 18 public hearing process, they are made part of 19 that district. 20 MR. DOUGHERTY: And what we have 21 to -- one of the reasons we're here, in 22 particular, this water front, there's seven or 23 eight neighborhoods. And I'll speak again 24 just for Pennsport. 25 Pennsport starts on Snyder Avenue 66 2 about 2000 South, it runs to Washington 3 Avenue, about 900 South, somewhere in that 4 vicinity, okay. On the lower end at Front and 5 Mercy I have widows who lived in the same 6 house which has been handed down from family 7 to family who live on a $300 dollar pension 8 from the sugar house from years ago at the 9 lower end that are concerned about keeping 10 their door open and feeling safe and worried 11 about keeping the water out of their basement. 12 On the Northern end of Pennsport I 13 have 25 to 30 houses over $675,000 for sale, 14 and a double income, rather professional, 15 okay, double degree group of people that 16 attend the same civic association. That's 17 within one little community. And that's so 18 diverse and the opinions are so different. 19 So you can imagine when we work our 20 way from the lower end of Whitman, you know, 21 up through Society Hill into Northern 22 Liberties, you have different, you have 23 different -- so it's not the fact that you 24 have three or four casinos looking at Delaware 25 Avenue. You have three or four different sets 67 2 of communities and different classes of people 3 there, okay. And so, you know, you just can't 4 blanket. 5 Now, I know certain things are in 6 place already. Look, again, I tell you, for 7 the record, I get paid to build buildings. 8 It's just that you have people that just don't 9 understand. Let me put it this way, I think 10 sometimes we misrepresent to them, and it's a 11 tad disingenuous, to that grandmother that 12 lives on the 100 block of Mercy Street who 13 votes for the last so many elections and just 14 thinks that she's being -- you know, her 15 interests are being protected. And they're 16 not. 17 MR. GREENBERG: I will only say that 18 the CED does not solve every issue that's 19 associated with gaming, you're right. It's 20 our attempt to do right what we can. If 21 you're going to have a huge commercial 22 development there and there are up sides and 23 down sides to this. 24 And frankly, I think the CED is 25 probably the right balance, although that's 68 2 obviously integrative terms to decide for 3 themselves, between going fast and getting 4 something done, and at the same time ensuring 5 the right checks are in place to protect the 6 communities. 7 What we don't want to do is end up 8 in -- we wanted to create a system that would, 9 frankly, allow Representative Taylor, 10 Representative Keller and Representative 11 Lederer to say to their colleagues we're not 12 going to hold this up in court for six years, 13 but we're going to make sure the community is 14 protected. And that's the balance we try to 15 strike. 16 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Just so the 17 audience understands my reference with regard 18 to the zoning and the veto power or the de 19 facto veto power of a councilman, I wasn't 20 just talking about this particular council 21 district or this councilman, but every 22 district councilman where this sort of 23 developed common law, if you will, in the city 24 of Philadelphia is that they have that 25 control. 69 2 And, you know, at least 3 Representative Keller and Lederer and I have 4 been involved in situations where we 5 appropriate $450 million dollars for a 6 building project that's held up for eight 7 years with thousands of jobs at stake, and 8 things like that, and it just gets held up for 9 who knows what reason, even if the community 10 all bought in, but. So that's where the 11 thinking comes from. 12 But again, now, you know, after 13 looking at all the other things that are put 14 in that bill and the testimony we received 15 yesterday about how damaging that is. You 16 know, I will at least put my faith in what 17 you're saying is that there will be an 18 accepting, reasonable process should you have 19 that power. 20 MR. DOUGHERTY: Planning Commission, 21 now, just because the Mayor -- and we're happy 22 that the executive order came down last week. 23 But I imagine that the Planning Commission had 24 to have some studies on the impact of the 25 casinos on what would happen on a long term 70 2 infrastructure going or do you have any work 3 product to this point? 4 MR. KNAPTON: There's one work 5 product which we submitted to Kevin last year. 6 And apart from that -- also economic 7 development work on the river front north and 8 south, but not specific to the casinos. 9 MR. DOUGHERTY: Well, okay, how 10 about the infrastructure in general? Like, do 11 you have anything, you have any opinion, has 12 there been a documented opinion, not today's 13 opinion, has there been anything in the past 14 that says, Hey, the access and egress off of 15 the Reed/Washington Street exit, things like 16 that? 17 MR. KNAPTON: For economic 18 development purposes we do that when specific 19 projects come up as to the Redevelopment 20 Authority and PIDC. And that's about the 21 limit of what I can say. 22 MR. DOUGHERTY: Well, I'm the 23 Chairman of the Board for the Philadelphia 24 Redevelopment Authority and I haven't seen 25 anything yet. I don't know about PIDC, but 71 2 from my perspective I haven't seen anything 3 yet. And I make it a point of making sure 4 that every new development has the proper 5 engineering when it comes to distribution and 6 processing of sewage and water and things 7 along them lines, so. 8 MR. GREENBERG: Patrick Mulligan, 9 who is in the room here today from the Gaming 10 Task Force Staff, worked with Planning and the 11 Streets, to the extent we have good casino 12 based traffic studies, they are incomplete. 13 We know they were done as a high level look 14 and now that the plans are becoming more 15 concrete there needs to be a lot more detailed 16 look. 17 MR. DOUGHERTY: The State Rep. wants 18 to talk. I just want to follow up. 19 Yesterday we had a meeting -- this 20 is relevance of our brothers and sisters at 21 I.L.A., the Food Produce Center. I addressed 22 it during the negotiations at the Penn's 23 Landing Board meeting about dumping the 24 traffic on Delaware Avenue. And I asked, and 25 you were in the room when I asked PIDC, three 72 2 four, maybe five times. And they said, Well, 3 we're not sure. 4 Yesterday we were told that it looks 5 like most of the traffic will be ran in. And 6 the fact that there's already been $150 7 million dollars or so, and that, you know, put 8 in towards, state money toward the Produce 9 Center. And that there was going to be a 10 road, temporary road and permanent road and 11 there was going to be a permanent bridge. 12 Does the Planning Commission take 13 into play -- so I just don't want this to get 14 focussed on gaming because this is talking 15 about jobs for people who live inside the 16 neighborhood, you know, where I grew up at. 17 How does, when we have a plan, who is there to 18 represent the men and women who are working on 19 them jobs in the layouts of the infrastructure 20 that goes with the future development? 21 Because by putting a road in a wrong 22 place it basically could landlock and cut the 23 ability for some of the larger stevedore 24 companies to develop and grow. 25 MR. KNAPTON: I think I can give a 73 2 general answer to your specific question about 3 the Naval Business Center and access. Because 4 one of the basic problems when the city 5 acquired the Navy Base was it was one access, 6 Broad Street. And so from that time on the 7 Planning Commission has been talking about, 8 okay, the second road, the second access and 9 what kind of bridge that would require and how 10 much cost that will be. 11 Now, the specifics of that I don't 12 know. But I know that from the outset people 13 have said, Well, at some point, depending on 14 the level of development on what used to be 15 called Muston Field, the Naval Air Station 16 Field in the east end of the Naval Base, at 17 some point when that becomes developable and 18 there's a demand for it then obviously there's 19 going to be a traffic issue and a question of 20 how to pay for and where to put a major 21 bridge. 22 So basically the discussion has been 23 so far as I know, informal, but that's so far 24 as I know. 25 MR. DOUGHERTY: See yesterday, and 74 2 I'll move forward with this, yesterday it was 3 some specific conversation about that. The 4 cost, you know, how long it's going to be 5 there and the answers were probably permanent, 6 permanent, and we think permanent. Also the 7 conversation is a little concerning to myself 8 from a Foxwood perspective and the community's 9 perspective is that PennDOT, the DEP and the 10 Delaware Planning stated that they had been 11 given cursory, just casual type conversation 12 about parking impacts and things along them 13 lines. 14 So that's why I asked you, Dave, 15 what do you see your role? I mean, there's -- 16 we didn't even talk about green space and land 17 acquisition and all these other points of 18 concern to the people that are here. We are 19 just looking at the basic points that we 20 thought were managed. 21 MR. KNAPTON: Well, one response to 22 that would be to look at the specific case. 23 The specific case that -- I think we're 24 speaking of the same thing -- expansion of the 25 Naval Business Center from the Food 75 2 Distribution Center area. The manager of each 3 is the PIDC. And so what we do in Planning 4 when looking at a parcel or a development site 5 where the developer owns both pieces and wants 6 to develop both pieces, and they're adjacent 7 to each other, we try to make sure the plan's 8 internally consistent and that it works. 9 And if there are a whole bunch of 10 other stakeholders to that, other property 11 owners around the perimeter, that's something 12 else. 13 But if it's internal to the two 14 abutting parcels, then that's a matter of the 15 developer to work on and come back and talk to 16 us. 17 I'm making it sound too simple, 18 but -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Excuse me. 20 You're not only making it sound simple, you're 21 making it sound like it's in the planning 22 stage and we had PennDOT in here yesterday, 23 said this is done. 24 MR. KNAPTON: I'm sorry to mistake 25 then. I didn't mean to say that it's in the 76 2 planning stage, but only as an example, if two 3 property owners are side by side as the same 4 property -- 5 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: I know we're 6 getting off from what we were talking about, 7 but let's just, so we can get this on the 8 record. 9 DVRPC stood up here and had a slide 10 show and said we have problems that their 11 doing freight movement, we have problems 12 because we have at-grade crossings again into 13 Packer Avenue. 14 PennDOT then said, Oh, we're going 15 to put a road down there. They're going to 16 put a road across six at-grade crossings just 17 to get into the lower end of the Navy Yard. 18 But not take into consideration that that's 19 the future development of the port. They're 20 going to cut the port right in half. Nobody 21 is saying a word. Saying, Done deal. 22 Asked, Well, are you putting it on a 23 TIP plan so that the federal government will 24 pay 80 percent of that? The answer is no, the 25 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is going to take 77 2 on the whole, they said $75 million dollars, 3 and they didn't know how much the road was 4 going to cost. So they're going to take on, I 5 would say, $150 million dollar burden by the 6 time they're done. Not even put it on the TIP 7 list so the feds will pay, be able to pay 8 80 percent of it. That's planning? They're 9 sitting there and they're saying, This is what 10 we're going to do, and this is planning? And 11 the City Planning Commission has no idea 12 what's going on. 13 MR. KNAPTON: Well, I can't speak 14 for PennDOT. 15 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: And why is 16 it -- PIDC, isn't that a -- that's a public 17 entity? 18 MR. KNAPTON: That's a public 19 entity, yes. 20 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Well, you're 21 acting like they're private developers. 22 That's the public's, it's not PIDC, that's us. 23 It's not like PIDC owns two pieces we want to 24 develop. 25 We're saying you got to sit down and 78 2 take a look at this whole thing. And it's 3 not -- it's not a plan, maybe it's a plan, but 4 I'm going to say it's a bad plan. All right. 5 It's a bad plan. It's not looking five years 6 down the road, not along 30 years down the 7 road like we're supposed to look. It's going 8 to cut off all future development of the port 9 industrial that we're interested in. Just so 10 you can get into the lower end of the Navy 11 Yard. 12 We say, take your time, again, let's 13 look at this, there's got to be a better way 14 to do this. Not spending $100 million dollars 15 to get a bridge which, from my understanding, 16 may be the largest structure in South 17 Philadelphia by the time they're done with it. 18 And we're just jamming that in. Everybody 19 ready? Jam. Did anybody know about this 20 going on? It's going on. Plans. City 21 Planning. Apparently, you had something to do 22 with it. 23 Off that subject. Back to 862. All 24 right. Kevin, 862, you said as it stands now 25 it takes away all the city's abilities to 79 2 regulate strip clubs and everything else? 3 MR. GREENBERG: On the casinos 4 themselves, yes. 5 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: In 862 6 there's an associated areas piece. In the 7 associated areas piece this gives, from the 8 way we read it -- and nobody's been able to 9 tell us any different -- the casinos the 10 ability to jump anywhere they want if they 11 could connect it by bridge, pedestrian 12 walkway, variance. 13 MR. GREENBERG: There's actually 14 even a more scary argument, although I think 15 we would fight that in court. 16 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: No, let's 17 have the scary argument, it's Halloween. 18 MR. GREENBERG: So in theory the 19 streets or the utilities, or something like 20 that, could connect it to Chestnut Hill, in 21 theory. We would fight -- I think there's a 22 good argument that you can't go to Chestnut 23 Hill with this, but how far you go -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: But you 25 could reach, through variance, you could reach 80 2 every property along the Delaware River and 3 you could reach every property across Delaware 4 Avenue. 5 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: We would 6 love to get Chestnut Hill into this battle. 7 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: We could use 8 their support. 9 MR. GREENBERG: Let me put it this 10 way, I think getting across Delaware Avenue by 11 a couple of properties or getting up or down 12 the river a couple of properties from where 13 you are is what the author of this version of 14 862 seems to be contemplating. That is what 15 we think they are contemplating. On behalf of 16 the city I'm not real, real happy with that. 17 And I think we would try to do what we can do 18 to legally fight that. 19 But, I mean, I'm here representing 20 the Solicitor, that's going to have to be his 21 call at the end of the day. 22 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: So in theory 23 what we're saying you believe is also to be 24 true, that the current version of 862 will 25 give -- wrap up in a bow and give to the 81 2 casinos all future development of the Delaware 3 River? 4 MR. GREENBERG: I certainly would 5 not say that for the record in any sort of 6 way. 7 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: I'll say it. 8 Do you agree with me? 9 MR. GREENBERG: I think we'd be 10 fighting that, let me put it that way. 11 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: You'll fight 12 it. But that's what this bill does right now? 13 MR. PATTERSON: There was also a 14 subtlety that was crossed over that Kevin 15 mentioned in the city bill, and it had to do 16 with the approval process. 17 And typically, when you're looking 18 at zoning there's two parts, there are the 19 uses and then there's the zoning dimensional 20 requirements, the height, the bulk, the set 21 back, et cetera. And you go through the Water 22 Department and the Planning Commission and the 23 Streets Department and they review your plans 24 in accordance with their rules and regulations 25 too. 82 2 You file with L & I. It either 3 meets the code requirements. If it doesn't, 4 and if you choose not to meet them, then you 5 go to the Zoning Board for variance relief 6 because you're deviating from the code. 7 This is a rarely used process 8 described here, that you go through the 9 initial steps and the reviewing agency is not 10 L & I or the Zoning Board, it's City Council. 11 City Council, with the Planning Commission, 12 determines whether your plan meets the zoning 13 code requirements. If it does, you 14 automatically get your permit. If it doesn't, 15 you don't get your permit. But back to if it 16 does, there's no appeal process unless you 17 challenge the City Council action by saying it 18 was improperly voted case or they exceeded 19 Constitutional authority. 20 So it does take everyone's input out 21 of the process. Which means that it's very, 22 very important to look at what the parameters 23 are in the bill in terms of the uses and the 24 set backs and everything you're just 25 mentioning. Because once it's in there, you 83 2 can't change it. If it's in there and you 3 meet it, you go to City Council, they have to 4 approve it. So it's rarely used because it's 5 a curve ball kind of process. 6 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: We've been 7 saying this all along, if this bill gets out 8 in two years everybody will be up screaming 9 and it will be too late. 10 This bill will not be able to be -- 11 I said it at the Editorial Board, making laws 12 is not an exact science. Where we pass a 13 bill, we pass a law, then we're back fixing it 14 two years later. We pass this bill, 862, in 15 its current form, there's no fixing it. 16 There's no fixing it. Because we are just 17 handing over future development of the 18 Delaware River, and my concern, the port of 19 Philadelphia, to casinos who have no interest 20 in developing, only in their own interest. 21 MR. GREENBERG: I would take that 22 one step further and say that not only are the 23 zoning codes preempted under this new version 24 of 862, but when the Gaming Act was passed 25 before the provision on zoning was struck 84 2 down, the prohibition -- the preemption was 3 simply limited to land use controls. 4 The current language preempts all 5 regulatory and police powers which includes 6 fire inspection, it includes fire code 7 compliance, it includes the plumbing codes, it 8 includes all of the building codes, all of the 9 building permitting, all the building 10 inspections. You will have to have a state 11 entity responsible, which doesn't exist. 12 Where they will have to hire folks at the 13 state boards to look at fire codes and 14 building codes and all of the compliance 15 issues and the whole permitting process. 16 That, frankly, we have L & I 17 inspectors, good, bad, different, they're here 18 and they know what they're doing. Okay. The 19 state doesn't have those folks in Philadelphia 20 and they will be watching over these 21 properties. 22 And that's something that, again, is 23 one of the things that they just sort of 24 slipped into this version of the bill. 25 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Well, Kevin, 85 2 I know this won't give you any solace, but I'm 3 telling you, they're not only tearing apart 4 what the city has rights to, they're taking 5 riparian rights that have always been a 6 legislative process. It's always been the 7 purview of the legislature to give riparian 8 rights and to go through the process, put a 9