1 2 3 MR. DOUGHERTY: What a beautiful 4 place and a beautiful view of the river. 5 My name is John Dougherty. Mostly 6 you know me in my full-time capacity as a 7 labor leader, but I'm here as head of the 8 Pennsport Civic Association, which is at this 9 point my most favorite job. 10 Just want to let you know, being the 11 President of a community association with so 12 much development, not only in our 13 neighborhoods but on the water front area 14 attached to our neighborhood, has been 15 exciting and a little confusing. So we're 16 here today to talk about the impact that the 17 large box, stadiums, residential, retail, 18 commercial developments along the water front 19 and through our neighborhoods and talk about 20 the impact, you know. And I don't believe 21 that it's a positive impact at this present 22 time. 23 And that's why it's been an honor to 24 work alongside State Representative Keller, 25 also with our other community groups, you 2 2 know, to the north and the one that we deal on 3 a daily issue is our good friends from the 4 Whitman Civic Association. 5 What I'd like to do for a second is 6 just acknowledge that we do in the room have a 7 Jim Foy, Ed McBride, Jim Penza, Fred Keller 8 and Richie Laser, all from the Whitman Civic 9 Association who is our partner here in 10 sponsoring this. Also Rich Laser is the 11 Administrative Assistant of Councilman Kenny. 12 And also we've had some, just in our 13 own little neighborhood, we transcend so many 14 issues, we've had so many detailed 15 conversations about development that we 16 haven't been able to resolve, you know, within 17 a ten block radius. So when the water front 18 starts to open up and we have things like 19 Senate Bill 862, I know it becomes very 20 confusing. 21 So it's been improved, in depth 22 conversation with our State Representative 23 Bill Keller, and we come up with this idea of 24 about having some sort of symposium that did 25 away with all the superficial approaches that 3 2 we've taken and get more into what exactly has 3 happened, how can we help the process along, 4 how can we have more detailed neighborhood 5 involvement and how can we ask the difficult 6 questions. Some as simple as a flooded 7 basement to as complicated to a casino or two 8 in anyone's neighborhood. 9 So we're here today with a -- to 10 start off a two-day symposium. The first part 11 of this will talk about transportation this 12 morning. The second part will talk a lot 13 about the water issues and the environmental 14 issues and the one pipe sewer system and 15 things along them lines. Tomorrow we will 16 have a varied agenda which will end up with 17 gaming. 18 So I really appreciate all our 19 neighbors and community activists and friends 20 who have stopped in to join. To my left, 21 State Representative Keller, who has taken a 22 lead of working with his partners in 23 Harrisburg. 24 And to my right, the legendary State 25 Representative Marie Lederer. 4 2 And also we have John Taylor, who 3 has been an activist as well as a legislative 4 leader for years and this is a bipartisan 5 community symposium. We're lucky enough to 6 have a wide variety of professionals. 7 And again, you know, trying to 8 avoid -- I guess we will have an opening 9 statement from everyone on the podium and then 10 we'll just jump into the meat and potatoes. 11 We're going to open up with the 12 Delaware Valley Regional Planning Manager, Ted 13 Dahlburg, and then we'll move forward. 14 This has, so you know, has nothing 15 to do with politics and everything to do with 16 community. This has nothing to do with the 17 executive order that the Mayor, you know, put 18 forward yesterday. But we're glad to see that 19 there is some, you know, design and ideas 20 about planning on the water front. This is 21 purely a neighborhood driven symposium and 22 we're looking forward to all you're input. 23 State Representative Keller. 24 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Thank you, 25 John. 5 2 Good morning, everyone. Thanks for 3 getting up early on a Saturday morning and 4 being here. We do believe this is important 5 and I know you believe it's important that's 6 why you're here. 7 As John said, we're here to really 8 get answers. There's a lot of questions out 9 there, and to tell you the truth, we have been 10 asking questions and we have been getting 11 probably the same results you have, you know, 12 there's three or four different answers to 13 every question. So as somebody who has been 14 involved with the water front a long time, I 15 have made my living -- and I see Sonny Howlett 16 out there -- I have made my living on the 17 water front for 25 years. 18 It's very important not only to the 19 people who make their living on the water 20 front, but it's a very important economic 21 engine. There's a lot of very important good 22 high paying family sustaining jobs along the 23 water front. There's some studies to say that 24 there are 45,000 direct jobs related to the 25 water front. And multiply that by ancillary 6 2 jobs. And this is just on the freight side. 3 And we've lived through, the people 4 who have been making their living on the water 5 front have lived through a cycle where even on 6 both sides of the river at one time there was 7 almost no value to the property along the 8 water front. You could see where New Jersey 9 had put up a prison and in an ideal spot along 10 the water front because there was no other 11 takers, nobody else, there was no other use 12 for that land. Now we're talking about 13 tearing the prison down. 14 You see where we put -- and I 15 thought at the time was probably the best 16 use -- big box retailers along, right on the 17 river. That's no longer the case, as you can 18 see. 19 I guess Representative Lederer will 20 tell you that, I think there's over 3,000 new 21 condo units being developed just in her 22 district alone along the water front. And I 23 am one who believes that if we sit down and do 24 this the right way we will absolutely be able 25 to have new residential buildings along the 7 2 water front. We need residential buildings. 3 You always want to increase your population. 4 You want to have good people in, living in the 5 city and that's how you can, you know, that's 6 how you continue tax base. 7 So I absolutely believe there's room 8 for residential, there's room for commercial, 9 no matter what that is, but we also have to 10 make room for the industrial water front that, 11 as we said, makes, you know, there's 45,000 12 direct jobs and we need to keep that as an 13 economic engine in this city. There's no 14 reason to throw away any of those three 15 pieces. 16 But I have -- you know, I have a 17 feeling, and I think I have been watching it 18 happen, where if we don't do this the right 19 way we will force a round peg in a square 20 hole. And to me, the way the water front is 21 being developed now, that is what's happening. 22 People are just rushing. It's valuable land, 23 it's a valuable resource. And now it's like, 24 I guess, the Forty-Niners' Gold Rush, 25 everybody is rushing down there and staking a 8 2 claim. And I think it's our job as community 3 leaders, as political leaders, to just say, 4 Sit back, Everybody take your time, Everybody 5 will be taken care of. 6 But we only get one shot at doing 7 this. This is one shot. And we got to do 8 this the right way. And I think today is the 9 first step in making sure we are going to do 10 this the right way. 11 I would like to hand it to John 12 Taylor. 13 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Thank you, 14 Bill. 15 I'm Representative John Taylor. And 16 along with Representative Keller and 17 Representative Lederer I share, at least from 18 the state point of view, the Delaware River 19 up, I guess from Cumberland Street to Bridge 20 Street. 21 And if you noticed on your way in 22 the sign about the symposium uses the word 23 2015. And I think that's very important in 24 that, well, while there's no doubt that our 25 immediate concerns are gaming and how it's 9 2 going to effect us, I think we really do need 3 to look at it long term. 4 When I was asked to participate the 5 first thing I said to Bill Keller was that 6 hopefully we will also include that land north 7 of the proposed gaming sites because there's 8 some very important and controversial things 9 going on there with development of one 10 project, 800 brand new houses along the river 11 in Bridesburg, trails, many retail end and 12 residential proposals that people aren't 13 talking about it in this end of town. 14 So what this does for us, at least 15 for me this weekend, it's very difficult to 16 get the kind of people that we have scheduled 17 here in one room at one time. But this -- you 18 know, the reason we're doing it on a weekend 19 because when everybody's schedule starts 20 getting rolling it's hard to coordinate that 21 kind of thing, and we have a great opportunity 22 to hear firsthand. Hopefully, all the folks 23 that spent a lot of time giving out 24 information in the past three months would 25 fill these seats and hear from the very people 10 2 who are charged with the responsibility of 3 knowing what they know. So we're looking 4 forward to hearing all the testifiers and 5 getting your input as well. 6 This is Rich Levins from the New 7 Kensington Community Development Corporation. 8 MR. LEVINS: Good morning, everyone. 9 As John said, I'm Rich Levins, I'm 10 the President and Chairman of the Board of New 11 Kensington Community Development Corporation. 12 I'm a resident of Fishtown for the last 25 13 years and a lifelong resident of Philadelphia. 14 And I share this distinguished panel's passion 15 for the water front and the city in general. 16 New Kensington very briefly 17 represents Port Richmond, parts of Port 18 Richmond, Kensington and the Fishtown area. 19 We do housing development zoning issues, we 20 clean brown fields, we clean lots, we maintain 21 lots and we build houses. 22 Just very briefly, as Representative 23 Keller said, we have one shot at the water 24 front. And I think we really need to, you 25 know, draw on the vision of the past leaders 11 2 in Philadelphia like Ed Bacon who was 3 responsible for the Renaissance of Old City 4 and those other great leaders who were 5 responsible for the development of Kelly 6 Drive, the Schuylkill River water front and 7 the Parkway. 8 I think there can be uses that are 9 both residential, recreational and commercial 10 in the water front and I think that we need to 11 do it right. So I hope you enjoy the 12 conference. Thank you. 13 I'm going to pass this on to Matt 14 Ruben who is with the Northern Liberties Civic 15 Association. 16 MR. RUBEN: Hi, my name is Matt 17 Ruben, I'm on the Board of Directors of the 18 Northern Liberties Neighborhood Association, a 19 community of approximately 5,000 people. I 20 have lived in Philadelphia for 14 years, which 21 makes me a newcomer, I know. Another 50 years 22 I will be considered a native. 23 The Northern Liberties Neighborhood 24 Association has been concerned about planning 25 and river front planning for quite some time. 12 2 We actually conducted and completed our own 3 neighborhood plan in 2005 because no one else 4 was going to do it because we had a city which 5 had abdicated its planning role. 6 And we have also now embarked upon 7 an addendum to our neighborhood plan, which is 8 for a section of the Delaware River Front that 9 includes our neighborhood in some areas 10 immediately adjacent to the north and south. 11 And we look forward to being a part moving 12 forward with any comprehensive planning on the 13 river front which is sorely needed and very 14 much overdue. 15 And I have just three very brief 16 comments about what I think is important about 17 the river front planning process. 18 Number one, as was said a few 19 moments ago, and I think it is very important, 20 Philadelphia has always been whatever else 21 it's been, a working city. And the Northern 22 Liberties Neighborhood Plan, which includes 23 the water front, but also includes the whole 24 neighborhood, emphasizes the need to retain 25 and maintain whenever possible industrial uses 13 2 which are compatible with the mixed use 3 character of the neighborhood. 4 And I think that principle should 5 carry over to the river front, which is to say 6 that we should not have a river front simply 7 of retail uses and residential uses. We 8 should maintain manufacturing uses where 9 appropriate and we should even maintain light 10 industrial and artisanal uses mixed in with 11 residential and commercial uses. I think that 12 does justice to the heritage of our city and 13 obviously it's incredibly important in 14 creating and preserving jobs and maintaining 15 the urban fabric that we love about 16 Philadelphia. 17 Secondly, I think greening of the 18 water front is crucial and important. And all 19 too often environmental concerns get treated 20 as a kind of extra boutique concern that 21 aren't really important to the core of what we 22 need. And that's not true. There is precious 23 little land left on the Delaware River Front 24 that you can see when you're not on the river 25 front and that you can get to and that you can 14 2 actually do something useful once you get 3 there. There are piers going out into the 4 river that need to be claimed and preserved 5 for the public as green park areas for public 6 recreation and for public use for enjoyment 7 and for health and for the use and 8 preservation of true public access which is 9 fast disappearing on the river front. 10 This also includes the need to have 11 greenways and mass transit pathways so that 12 people can get up and down the river and from 13 the neighborhoods to the river front. The 14 idea that the river belongs to all of us and 15 that we all have to have guaranteed access is 16 an idea that has atrophied in recent years and 17 we need to be very strong and stand up for 18 that. 19 And any river front plans has to get 20 down to specifics. In other words, where 21 exactly do we propose to put public access and 22 create public spaces? There has to be some 23 point in our river front planning discussions 24 where we sit down to the nuts and bolts and 25 say, This is going to go here and that's going 15 2 to go there, and we don't want this here, we 3 want it over there. And that's key or else 4 we're never going to have public access if we 5 keep articulating it as a vague principle and 6 don't actually start targeting areas of the 7 river front where we want to preserve that 8 public access. 9 Finally, the most important thing is 10 we need a true public and community process. 11 We certainly need to do river front planning 12 right, but we need to do it. And we've tried 13 to do it right for many, many years and we 14 haven't actually done it. There needs to be a 15 process where communities and community 16 organizations have integral input into the 17 nuts and bolts of planning. And I'm 18 encouraged by some recent developments that 19 indicate that there might actually be such an 20 advisory process for river front planning 21 going forward. 22 And there has to be a committment 23 among elected officals at all levels of 24 government to actually implement this thing. 25 And that includes, as I mentioned before, 16 2 considering things like getting state riparian 3 rights for certain piers given to the city so 4 the city can make public land for the public. 5 So we need a real political commitment and we 6 need the political will to include the public 7 and to actually make this stuff happen. 8 So to me those are the three things 9 that we need, we need to preserve the mixed 10 character of the uses in the city, we need to 11 green the river front and provide true green 12 public access. And we need to have a public 13 process that includes true accountability and 14 a concrete commitment of elected officials to 15 get this done with public input. 16 As a final note I would just say 17 that I think we have great models for how to 18 do this. And we also have city chartered 19 non-profit organizations that are great models 20 for how not to do water front planning and we 21 need to move away from that model and towards 22 a more open and accountable process. Thank 23 you. 24 MR. DOUGHERTY: I'd like to welcome 25 and thank Matt for his comments and Richie for 17 2 his comments. 3 Marie Lederer. 4 REPRESENTATIVE LEDERER: I'm the 5 State Representative for this district. I 6 live on Shackamaxon Street, one block off the 7 river, one of the proposed sites. I have 8 lived there for 50 years. I've seen it change 9 in a way that could be better, but could be 10 worse. 11 My concern, one of the concerns I 12 have, is the fact that 3,000 new condos will 13 be built within a mile and-a-half along the 14 river. And true, the developers guarantee and 15 the ordinance guarantees that they will have 16 their own indoor on-site parking. But where 17 are these cars going to drive? 18 Add 3,000 condos -- you can't hear? 19 Add the 3,000 condos to the casino 20 traffic and the buses and I really wonder what 21 kind of planning we have so that the traffic 22 doesn't overtake the neighborhoods. 23 There never has been a plan for the 24 water front, a complete plan. I hope that 25 this results in one. 18 2 The eleven mega nightclubs that we 3 had in a mile and-a-half radius on Delaware 4 Avenue created havoc as far as traffic was 5 concerned. Ambulances couldn't get through, 6 fire engines couldn't get through, it was 7 really a complete nightmare. I don't want to 8 see that happen again. 9 I don't know whether there's any 10 plan to remove the beautiful strip that's in 11 the middle of Delaware Avenue in order to make 12 more traffic lanes, but certainly PennDot will 13 speak to us and perhaps they have a plan. 14 I know that there's talk about 15 removing the 43 bus, which is one of the only 16 sources of public transportation on Delaware 17 Avenue and Columbus Boulevard. Penn Treaty 18 Park Place, where my office is presently, has 19 500 employees in that building. The bus 20 service would be cut. These are the things 21 that we have to settle before any definite 22 plan goes into operation. 23 I'm thrilled that this symposium is 24 happening because we need help. We need help 25 in planning this properly. Thank you so much. 19 2 MR. DOUGHERTY: Thank you, Marie. 3 Also with us, joining us, is Rene 4 Goodwin, who is the Riverfront Community 5 United spokesperson and president. 6 MS. GOODWIN: My name is Rene 7 Goodwin. I'm a lifelong member of Pennsport 8 before it was Pennsport. I have been serving 9 as the Chair of Riverfront Communities United, 10 although I am not here representing that 11 particular group today. I'm not even here 12 representing Pennsport because our President, 13 Mr. Dougherty, can adequately do that, I'm 14 sure. 15 Who am I representing? Well, my 16 grandparents got off the boat a long time ago 17 from Poland, thought it was California, it 18 wasn't. They were Polish, you know. I can 19 say that, I'm both blonde and Polish. They 20 lived in a house on Ellsworth Street all of 21 their lives here in this country. They bore 22 their children, they gave birth to their 23 children in that house, they raised them in 24 that house. My grandfather walked to his job 25 up in Kensington at a metal manufacturing 20 2 company every day until the day he took a 3 stroke. My grandmother devoted her life to 4 raising her family in that community. 5 But you know what, they weren't 6 really unique because around the turn of the 7 century, in particular, there were thousands 8 of families who came from Ireland and Poland 9 and Russia, Ukrainia and settled all along the 10 communities around the river front. Maybe I'm 11 representing them. 12 I've always thought of the water 13 front and the people who live in the water 14 front as ethnically diverse, culturally rich 15 and financially very resourceful and 16 resilient. If you look at the history of the 17 water front, the water front has always been 18 at the heart of the economic life of this 19 entire region, not just this city. It 20 continues to do that. It goes through 21 metamorphose after metamorphose. It 22 transforms itself from a manufacturing 23 community to a high-end residential community 24 to a service community, but it lives, it 25 survives. 21 2 There's enough creativity in this 3 room alone to come up with a cornucopia of 4 creative ideas on how best to save and develop 5 the water front. My concern is where do we 6 find the resources? That's my particular 7 interest. Can we come up with enough of the 8 funds required from our own pockets as 9 taxpayers? How do we find inducements and 10 enticements and requirements should that be 11 necessary from the private sector, from the 12 developers, even from the private sector who 13 is not developing along the water front. 14 The water front is the jewel of this 15 city. We all have a responsibility, even 16 those with very deep pockets. To see that it 17 is accessible and treasured as it is. Thank 18 you. 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: Thank you, Rene. 20 What I'd like to do is, we'll move 21 right into the Delaware Valley Regional 22 Planning Manager, Ted Dahlberg. 23 And if you don't mind, I'll ask you 24 a question myself to start off. 25 In the Pennsport community, the Reed 22 2 Street/Washington Avenue exit, all four 3 casinos who are looking to put their business 4 on the water front are looking at that area as 5 their main point of access and egress. When 6 we look at the transportation improvement 7 plan, be it the 12-year or the 30-year plan, 8 there's absolutely no mention of doing 9 anything with the Reed Street or Washington 10 Avenue off-ramp. 11 Things like that are very concerning 12 to the community. You know, if we were to 13 leave here today and try to get down Delaware 14 Avenue toward the Ikea site it would take you 15 every bit of 45 minutes. So when you take a 16 look at the possibility of that being, again, 17 the main point of access and it's not, you 18 know, it hasn't been in any of the 19 transportation improvement plan forecasts, 20 that concerns the community, it concerns 21 ourself. 22 And they're the type of questions 23 that we, as a community, have been dealing 24 with and trying to get answers for. So I 25 really appreciate you taking the time to come 23 2 out. 3 And what we'll do is, we'll probably 4 direct the questions directly to Ted. You 5 don't have to go through, you know, the Chair 6 here, you know. But if it gets out of hand 7 I'll interject. 8 But that's the type of, you know, 9 quality question that we get from Joe 10 Neighbor. 11 MR. DAHLBERG: Thank you very much. 12 I do have a Power Point presentation 13 that I'd like to kind of segway into and I 14 hope I respond to your remark and question in 15 that context. 16 Can we pull this over a little bit? 17 Okay. I'm a transportation planner, 18 when I talk I like to have slides and Power 19 Point presentations. So I have about 24 20 slides here, some maps and photographs that I 21 hope will tell you a little bit about our 22 agency and some of the work that I'm doing. 23 Making the Delaware Valley a Great 24 Region to Live and Work In. 25 And I think that's why we're all 24 2 here. That's certainly what our agency is all 3 about and certainly the Delaware River is a 4 primary asset to making that happen. 5 Okay. Can everybody hear me? 6 So my talking points today will be 7 to tell you a little bit about our agency, 8 also some of my current research. 9 Mr. Dougherty was kind enough to 10 promote me to Manager of the Delaware Valley 11 Regional Planning Commission, but in reality 12 I'm the Manager of Freight Planning so that's 13 principally what I'm going to talk about 14 today. We've done some current work in this 15 area. And also like to talk to you a little 16 bit about our long range plans and some other 17 initiatives going on that impact the water 18 front. 19 Here is a key term for you, MPO, 20 Metropolitan Planning Organization. Each 21 region in the United States over 50,000 people 22 has an officially designated MPO. And we 23 serve that function for the nine county 24 Delaware Valley Region. We're the sixth 25 largest region in the country. We work very 25 2 closely with the two states, PennDOT, New 3 Jersey DOT. We work very closely with the 4 transit agencies, SEPTA and New Jersey 5 Transit. And we also work very closely with 6 our cities and our municipalities. We have 7 close to 352 municipalities. 8 Our role and vision I think is to 9 kind of provide the big picture for things 10 going on in the region. But we're also very 11 concerned with kind of what's happening down 12 at the local level as well. So we straddle 13 those two objectives. 14 We're an agency of about 100 people. 15 We deal with all kinds of transportation 16 issues, aviation, public transportation, and 17 in my case, freight movement. That's become 18 something about 15 years ago the federal law, 19 ICE-T, directed the MPOs and state DOTs to get 20 more proactive in the freight area. 21 And there's a couple reasons you 22 want to do that. One is that as we shift from 23 essentially a manufacturing economy to a 24 consumer economy the sheer volume and movement 25 of freight is rapidly growing. Some of the 26 2 experts at the national level are predicting 3 and projecting a movement of a doubling of 4 cargo by the year 2020 to satisfy our 5 seemingly insatiable consumer needs. 6 Another aspect, as several of the 7 panelists alluded to, including Representative 8 Keller, is the economic impact and the 9 benefits that can be derived, whether it's at 10 a port facility, or some of the value added 11 activities that take place in the region like 12 at a refinery, those create really important 13 family level kinds of jobs. So that's really 14 important. 15 The other thing is that, as 16 consumers, something like the waterway and 17 cargo that's arriving here, whether it's 18 bananas or oil, helps keep our costs down of 19 goods that we're consuming here, they can get 20 here cheaper. So that's really important. 21 One of the things that is important 22 in my job and that I have to undertake is to 23 educate people about freight and maybe get 24 them excited about it and feel good about it. 25 So one of the things we undertook recently was 27 2 a regional scan, a snapshot, a day in the 3 life, if you will, of freight movement in the 4 Delaware Valley. 5 The event was actually conducted on 6 Wednesday, September the 20th. And I proved 7 to myself that I can still pull an 8 all-nighter. I was up the entire day. We 9 undertook a number of activities. For 10 example, we inventoried every truck rest 11 facility in the Delaware Valley to see what 12 the utilization rate was for truck parking. 13 And that's both the New Jersey side and the 14 Pennsylvania side at truck rest facilities as 15 well as service plazas on the turnpike. 16 A couple months back down in the 17 South Philadelphia area there was a facility 18 there, the Walt Whitman Truck Plaza, it 19 closed. That means that now the Philadelphia 20 Southeastern Pennsylvania region has no 21 privately operated truck rest facility. And 22 when you consider all the trucks and, you 23 know, the deliveries that they're making, that 24 seems like a real gap in the system. So that 25 was one thing that we looked at. 28 2 We also worked with PennDOT. We 3 took traffic counts of trucks on the major 4 highways. We also got data from truck 5 activity on the bridges and the turnpikes. We 6 were down at the airport surveying aviation 7 cargo. And we also worked very closely with 8 the local maritime community to see, hey, 9 what's happening on the river. 10 Let's take a look, September the 11 20th. 12 Here's an image provided by the 13 maritime exchange of all the barges and ships 14 that were on the river at 8 o'clock in the 15 morning that morning. So it's not just ships, 16 it's also the barges. And you can see -- 17 first of all, you'll note, kind of maybe 18 different from some other ports, if you will, 19 we're a linear port, we're 90 miles up the 20 river. And there are facilities located from 21 Bucks County at the old Fairless steel 22 facility, all the way down to the State of 23 Delaware and so on. So there's a lot of 24 commercial activity, I think as this graphic 25 very clearly shows you. 29 2 You will note on it there are a 3 couple of clusters of activity. For example, 4 the refineries down in the Paulsboro and 5 Delaware County area. You also see that there 6 are even a number of barges on the Schuylkill 7 River, you know, Philadelphia's other water 8 front area. 9 Lastly, you will see that there are 10 a number of ships located between the bridges 11 here. And this has certainly become, from the 12 Walt Whitman to the Ben Franklin and also 13 Packer Avenue Marine Terminal, this is really 14 where the bulk of the general cargo activities 15 is occurring. 16 I checked and did a little research 17 on the nature of these ships and we determined 18 that that day some of the ships were coming 19 from Brazil, Nigeria, China and Germany. And 20 what are they carrying? Fruit, steel, oil and 21 containers. So it's a quite a variety, quite 22 a lot of activity. 23 I also got some reports in terms of 24 enforcement from the Coast Guard and also the 25 U.S. Customs. That's a very big aspect of 30 2 controlling and monitoring this commercial 3 activity. 4 So this is, you know, this took 5 place roughly a month ago, we're still going 6 through the results, but that was the maritime 7 side, very active that day and also very 8 representative. And I'm told from the 9 Maritime Exchange that this year we have a 10 total volume on the river, including Delaware, 11 of an increase of over 100 ships over this 12 point last year. So there's more ships 13 coming. 14 The other aspect is this -- 15 important for us at the Planning Commission, 16 and thinking about communities, you've seen a 17 lot about deepening the river and the main 18 channel, that's certainly to accommodate 19 bigger ships. Bigger ships also means that 20 there's a need for increased capacity on the 21 land side because you have these bigger ships 22 coming in, maybe more containers, more cargo, 23 they're going to be pushing out a lot more 24 into the local community upon their arrival. 25 So, for example, container ships, 31 2 some of them they carry up to, say 3,000 3 containers. Other ports, we may never see 4 these, but other ports may be hosting ships of 5 like eight and 9,000 containers at a time. So 6 that puts a lot of pressure on your highway 7 and your railroad access. 8 Something else that we did that day, 9 kind of building on my previous comment, was 10 to, on September 20th we had about 50 planners 11 out looking at facilities and rail and port 12 facilities to -- and I'll show you some 13 pictures of what was the trucking activity 14 like on these short connector routes that get 15 the commercial vehicles from the interstate 16 into the port or the rail facility. That's 17 really where the trucks kind of meet the 18 community, if you will. 19 We have an example here where 95 is 20 largely a bridge. When you get off of it, 21 suddenly you're down into the community, we 22 have, we have ten facilities, about 29 miles, 23 I think it's actually our inventory has 24 increased to 29 miles, of connectors carrying 25 over 100 trucks a day to these intermodal 32 2 facilities. And they've been granted a 3 special status in our planning process in that 4 they're eligible for National Highway System 5 funding. That's one of the funding pots that 6 we administer. 7 Two of the facilities I'm showing 8 you here most germane to Philadelphia, Packer 9 Avenue Marine Terminal and South Philadelphia. 10 The NHS connector, again, that last mile, that 11 last critical link between the modes is 12 essentially in this area designated as Old 13 Delaware Avenue extending from Piers 82-84 14 south to the south gate of Packer Avenue 15 Marine Terminal. I don't know if you can see 16 the yellow line, that's basically the 17 connector. 18 So without a doubt, the epicenter of 19 freight movement for our region is South 20 Philadelphia. We have the biggest facilities 21 there for handling cargo. All three Class 1 22 railroads serve South Philadelphia. As a 23 matter of fact, Norfolk Southern has just 24 built a brand new intermodal rail facility 25 there. CSX has a very large and modern yard 33 2 there. And also the Canadian Pacific serves 3 that area. That's the epicenter. That's 4 where it's happening in terms of freight, both 5 on the port and the rail side. And really 6 good highway access too, 76 and 95. 7 The other port we were interested in 8 in Philadelphia is the Tioga Marine Terminal 9 in North Philadelphia. And I heard some 10 representatives from that area. And that 11 connector there is a little bit complex 12 because of the configuration of the ramps at 13 Allegheny Avenue, the northbound to the 95 is 14 actually achieved by Castor Avenue. 15 So with our critical eye and trying 16 to assure, I guess seamless is the operative 17 word, interphase and connections between the 18 modes, there were maybe ten or so items that 19 we were looking for to facilitate the movement 20 and connections between the modes. 21 One of them would be overhead bridge 22 clearances. And I apologize for the darkness 23 of the picture, but I think you get a sense 24 there. This is actually Penn Terminals in 25 Delaware County. You can get a sense that 34 2 there are restrictions on occasion for pushing 3 cargo through these connector highways. This 4 is an overhead railroad bridge that would 5 preclude really any kind of general cargo or 6 any kind of large cargo from going into and 7 out of this port. 8 Here's another aspect, another 9 aspect of the design and location of facility 10 gates. That's really important. The facility 11 gates, where they are located, actually has 12 ultimately an impact on traffic into and out 13 of the facility. You can see the trucks here 14 are starting to kind of back up onto the local 15 highway here. 16 Again, as I mentioned, the trucks 17 coming through the local neighborhoods as they 18 make their way from the interstate highway to 19 the intermodal facility. The trucks are 20 heavy, 80,000 pounds and even heavier. In 21 some cases in international cargo you get 22 volumes and tonnage that even exceeds that 23 limit. This is a pretty good example actually 24 over in the Camden area of some pavement that 25 needs attention. 35 2 So again, the idea is to highlight 3 some of these things in our planning process. 4 These are things that show some sensitivities 5 and sensibilities regarding freight movement 6 which has its own needs, if you will. There's 7 kind of a popular phrase that says that 8 freight doesn't vote, but we're trying to 9 assure that some of these things are 10 represented in the planning process. 11 Rail access. Again, another aspect, 12 this is Pier 82-84, not too far from here, but 13 one of the largest cocoa bean facilities in 14 the country where the Hershey's Chocolate 15 receives their cocoa beans from as it comes 16 from Africa. So the assuring good rail access 17 as an alternative, perhaps, to trucking is 18 really important. 19 Highway rail interphase. It's a 20 little difficult to see, but there's a rail 21 spur, this is down in South Philadelphia, 22 there's a rail spur here that cuts across the 23 main access point of Packer Avenue Marine 24 Terminal at Packer Avenue and it serves the 25 old Publicker facility just north of the Walt 36 2 Whitman Bridge. What happens is, or can 3 happen is, there's a train sliding through 4 this area here it can really cause the truck 5 traffic to back up rapidly and the trains sit 6 there for some amount of time. 7 The geometry of highway ramps. I'll 8 show you in this slide and another one that 9 commercial vehicles and big trucks have 10 special needs in terms of turning radii. And 11 here's an example here where this truck is all 12 the way into the opposing lane of traffic 13 trying to make a right-hand turn, just truly 14 inadequate. 15 Good signs, good directional signs 16 to and from. This is at the Tioga Marine 17 Terminal. For the drivers it's really 18 important to have good signage both to the 19 facility and at the facility gate and also 20 back to the facility as well. That's really 21 important. We try to emphasize that. 22 In some cases there's some conflicts 23 posed by on street parking. Here's 24 Columbus -- or Old Delaware Avenue again which 25 runs parallel to Columbus Boulevard. There's 37 2 so much, so much truck parking and other 3 vehicles here that it makes it kind of a 4 conflict for the vehicles that are operating 5 through here. 6 And you wouldn't want to be that car 7 sitting there as that truck makes the turn 8 there. That's actually Petty's Island over in 9 New Jersey. You can see this, they pulled the 10 stop bar pretty far back so that the truck can 11 make the turn there. 12 I guess now, so enough about freight 13 for a day and also our inventory of NHS 14 connectors. Here is something else we at MPO, 15 one of the things we have to do is prepare a 16 long range plan by law. And we have a plan 17 that's been prepared out to the year 2030, 18 actually. 19 Our theoretical construct, if you 20 will, for freight movement is to emphasize two 21 major axes of facilities, one is the 22 north-south corridor and one is an east-west 23 corridor. In the north-south corridor, just 24 like the east-west one, it's very multi-modal. 25 It includes the Delaware River, it includes 38 2 I-95, it includes 295, it also includes the 3 CSX main line that comes kind of parallel as 4 I-95 through the city and Bucks County and 5 Delaware County. And the idea is to focus on 6 these facilities and make sure that they are 7 well suited to accommodate truck and rail and 8 ship activity. 9 The best initiatives in the country 10 have really had this corridor focus when it 11 comes to freight planning. And I think that, 12 here you can see some of these things, the 13 main idea is to improve safety, velocity, 14 reliability, costs, and also mitigate any 15 local impacts for those facilities. 16 There's some cases, for example, 17 where they've instituted what are called 18 idle-free corridors where they try to provide 19 truck rest facilities that have anti-idling 20 equipment so trucks can turn off their engines 21 while the drivers are sleeping. So 22 emphasizing those corridors I think is a 23 really important approach for us as we move 24 forward. 25 Wow, that's really tough to see. 39 2 But one of the things that we did do in the 3 plan, in our long range plan, and I can get 4 you copies or if anyone's interested, is that 5 we met with various people from the port and 6 so on, especially the port. And we're showing 7 here the locations where we envision major 8 port and rail capacity increases. 9 And some of them are kind of within 10 this area. For example, South Port down at 11 the Packer Avenue Marine Terminal, is a plan 12 that would marginalize Piers 122 and 124 at 13 the eastern end of the Navy Base and greatly 14 enhance the port activity down in that 15 location. The Port PRPA -- this is 16 coordinating with PRPA, the South Jersey Port 17 Corporation and others. There are even some 18 private facilities on here as well. 19 And I guess one -- another slide 20 that I wanted to show you is that freight kind 21 of by its nature is very multi-jurisdictional 22 and tends to kind of take us outside of our 23 own region. And here there are a number of 24 actual maritime initiatives going on right now 25 that may bring more freight to the region. 40 2 One of them is called Rapid or Agile 3 Port. This has to do with the transport of 4 military cargo, Philadelphia is one of, I 5 think, 14 now strategic military ports in the 6 United States. So that's a new commodity 7 within the past couple years that is flowing 8 in and out of the region. The Department of 9 Defense is actually, I think, the largest 10 shipper in the world. And so some of that 11 cargo is being handled here. 12 I think that's the main point I want 13 to make about this slide. 14 So just try to give you an overview 15 of some things we're doing at the regional 16 level with respect to freight. 17 I don't know if I answer any 18 questions now? 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: Yeah. 20 MS. GOODWIN: May I? 21 MR. DOUGHERTY: Yes. 22 MS. GOODWIN: Thank you, 23 Mr. Dahlburg. I have two questions, please. 24 There seems to be, based on what you're 25 hearing, and I'm very pleased to hear, plans 41 2 to continue to enhance freight activity along 3 the port. As you know, there are four casino 4 sites that are proposed for along this same 5 area. We know two sites are going to happen, 6 whether they're both going to be along the 7 water front, we don't know. I'm particularly 8 concerned with Foxwoods, but also as a 9 resident of Philadelphia I'm concerned with 10 all. 11 What sort of impact -- how do you 12 see the huge amount of traffic, for example, 13 Foxwoods is proposing that by three years 14 after opening they will be servicing 600 to 15 900 or so -- 9 million people. I mean, that's 16 a lot of vehicular traffic. You've already 17 indicated that there's a really close tie 18 between the train service, the rail service 19 and the ships, you know. So I'm interested to 20 know how you anticipate those two activities 21 co-existing together? 22 Secondly, there's the whole question 23 of the rail line in the middle of Columbus 24 Boulevard which I understand is controlled and 25 owned by CSX, with whom would a casino 42 2 applicant have to negotiate to assume those 3 rights or to take over some of those rights? 4 And lastly, I know this week that 5 the President signed into legislation a port 6 security bill, how do you see that impacting 7 the port activity? 8 MR. DAHLBERG: Okay. Wow, there's 9 some good questions there. Let's see. 10 With respect to the first question, 11 there was a reference made earlier about the 12 co-existence, I think, of many different uses 13 on the water front. And that's certainly 14 something we would support. 15 It appears that a lot of the 16 maritime activity along the river seems to be 17 kind of creeping slowly to the south. Just as 18 a, maybe from my regional perspective. The 19 South Jersey Port Corporation is opening up a 20 new facility at Paulsboro. I mentioned the 21 South Port facility at the Packer Avenue 22 Marine Terminal. 23 Our hope would be that through the, 24 through effective connectors and kind of 25 promoting maybe more of a carrot approach, if 43 2 you will, with good interstates and good 3 connectors that maybe there would be kind of a 4 separation, if you will, of the traffic 5 relative to those different kinds of 6 activities. 7 The second question? 8 MS. GOODWIN: CSX controlling those. 9 Because Foxwoods, for example, if Foxwoods 10 were to be the approved applicant, in 11 accordance with their mitigation plans for 12 traffic control they have not taken any 13 consideration, at least to my knowledge, into 14 account for the control of that middle line. 15 That is recessed. The CSX line there is not 16 on a level plane. You can't build roads that 17 way. 18 MR. DAHLBERG: CSX does have a 19 really active representative here in 20 Philadelphia. Perhaps we can engage him in 21 some conversation. 22 One of the things I know in selling 23 the region to other economic activity and 24 ports around the world is we do try to 25 emphasize the three Class 1 rail access that 44 2 come in here. These are the main rail, 3 interstate railroads that serve the port. So 4 let's see if we can work together more closely 5 with CSX. 6 With respect to port security, 7 that's not really an area that I do that much 8 in, so. 9 MS. GOODWIN: Thank you. 10 MR. DOUGHERTY: State Representative 11 Keller. 12 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Ted, thank 13 you. As you know, I'm very interested in the 14 freight movement, especially along the water 15 front. I believe that creates the kind of 16 jobs we're after. And I believe that it's a 17 mandate from the Federal government to try to 18 create as many jobs as we can from that. 19 You have touched on South Port. 20 What's the MPO's role in helping to develop 21 South Port? 22 MR. DAHLBERG: I would say South 23 Port, again, is this bold new initiative for 24 the southern end of Packer Avenue Marine 25 Terminal. I would say that our role is to 45 2 kind of put it on a map, as we've done here. 3 I would say to a lot of you that a lot of 4 other MPOs probably do not even have port 5 facilities show up in their plan, just to kind 6 of get it into people's thinking. 7 The other thing that we're working 8 on is improving highway access, working with 9 PennDot and the City of Philadelphia, to 10 extend Old Delaware Avenue down there and pull 11 away some of that traffic maybe from Broad 12 Street so there's good access at the eastern 13 end. 14 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Thank you. 15 Because that's exactly where I was going. We 16 believe involved in port industrial side of 17 this equation that, as you say, the increase 18 in freight will be at least seven percent a 19 year for the next 15 to 20 years. We're going 20 to double the freight coming into -- in ports 21 into the United States. And there's no way 22 around it. We're going to continue to buy and 23 we're going to continue to need this imports. 24 All indications I have that New York 25 is now what you talked about, land locked. 46 2 They have no -- in their port they have no 3 more room to build out, they're land locked, 4 they can't expand their port facilities any 5 more than they are. And that's the number one 6 port on the East Coast. 7 That gives Philadelphia an 8 opportunity that we have been waiting 100 9 years to get. We will be able to capture the 10 freight that cannot go into New York. It has 11 to come somewhere. We're ideally located, but 12 probably better than New York. You can bring 13 a ship into New York and deliver your 14 container faster even to New York than they 15 can if it lands in New York. We're able to 16 get the freight out quicker onto the highways 17 into New York faster than they can get it out 18 of their own port into the facilities. So 19 we're ideally situated. 20 And I'm very interested in South 21 Port. I believe that's where we capture that 22 freight. And that's a lot of jobs. And 23 that's a lot of good jobs. 24 But as you say, you're talking about 25 improving the access. I just looked at the 47 2 PennDot plan for that road that was -- that 3 South whatever it's called, South Delaware 4 Avenue. I believe that cuts our facility in 5 half. It will no longer -- we will no longer 6 have the ability to expand our port. 7 All the land that's been laying down 8 there nobody's wanted all those years, where 9 we'll be able to expand South Port and get 10 this industrial work in here. You guys are 11 going to put a road right down the middle of 12 it and we're not going to be able to expand. 13 It's just mind boggling. I mean, how come 14 that was never taken into consideration when 15 you planned the road that we need to expand 16 South Port, we need to capture this new cargo 17 and, by the way, we are going to put a road 18 down there where we can't capture it now. It 19 doesn't make sense to me. 20 That's one of the questions we need 21 to answer today. And that's why we're talking 22 about having this. We've never been able to 23 get these answers. And that road just 24 appeared with no, no future idea of -- I mean, 25 everybody is talking about South Port, yeah, 48 2 we're going to get South Port. But at the 3 same time you're talking about building South 4 Port and you're talking about building a road 5 that kills it. I don't understand it. 6 So that's why we're having this 7 symposium and one of questions I would like 8 the answer to today. 9 MR. DAHLBERG: On the positive side, 10 I wanted to -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Hubbida, 12 Hubbida. 13 MR. DAHLBERG: I think Mr. Keller 14 was talking about the, some of the positive 15 benefits of freight. One statistic I heard at 16 one point is that every container that enters 17 the region, somewhat like a hotel visitor, if 18 you will, generates a thousand dollars or more 19 in wages, local taxes and corporate benefits. 20 So it's just one way to think about the 21 benefits of a container. 22 Another aspect like the South Port 23 idea that's kind of in the vanguard of freight 24 planning has to do with freight villages. And 25 the idea behind that is to derive some value 49 2 added and provide value added activity for 3 some of the cargo, whether it's debagging 4 cocoa beans or some other aspect, the idea is 5 to take the freight and perhaps do something 6 with it before it gets shipped out of the 7 region, and that creates additional 8 employment. 9 Are one of you folks going to 10 deal -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: I was going 12 to say how about answering the question? 13 MR. DOUGHERTY: What we have here -- 14 what we will do is, what we have, Chuck Davies 15 here representing PennDot. So do you want 16 to -- we can make this more of a round table 17 type discussion if you would like to 18 interject, and if there's any questions that 19 transcend both of you, feel free to jump in. 20 Because I'm sitting here looking, 21 I'm looking at some of our friends on the 22 right hand side who are more interested in 23 open air green space and amphitheaters. And 24 we look, some of our other concerns are here 25 about water and sewer. Then I look, some of 50 2 our other concerns are talking about the 3 gaming. But there's also a major component of 4 this water front, you know, and neighborhood, 5 a part of this neighborhood that survives on 6 the industrial aspect. And you know, there 7 hasn't been any plan to state who goes where 8 and how do we blend them all together. 9 And these are just some of the 10 demographics now that, you know, State 11 Representative Keller, State Representative 12 Taylor, State Representative Lederer face 13 every day and we're just trying to get out 14 there and get a feel. 15 Why don't you pull that mike a 16 little bit closer. 17 We're going to change the tape here. 18 Okay. Ready? Let's go. 19 We're just going to let Chuck finish 20 answering that question then we're going to go 21 right over to New Kensington. 22 MR. DAVIES: PennDot is involved in 23 the Food Distribution Center project as the 24 Representative said. 25 MR. DOUGHERTY: Just speak louder. 51 2 MS. GOODWIN: Little bit slower, 3 just a little slower. 4 MR. DAVIES: You're all going to be 5 disappointed in what I have to say. 6 We are involved in the Food 7 Distribution Center project, of course. There 8 is a temporary and a permanent phase to this. 9 We have been working with the people who are 10 building the new center at -- in their new 11 location. We have been working out the 12 alignment with them. I'm a bit taken aback 13 by, you know, any sentiment that, you know, 14 that somehow this is not going to work for the 15 site. We thought we had every point of view, 16 you know, in the area that had an interest 17 that had come forward, you know. 18 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: I'm not 19 worried about a point of view. You're traffic 20 people. You tell me how you do another 4,000 21 truck movements over this temporary road, 22 which I believe will be a permanent road, all 23 right. You're getting 4,000 truck movements 24 and we just had the MPO say that rail spur, 25 we're going to have to do something with it. 52 2 You're putting 4,000 trucks over six at-grade 3 crossings. And you're saying we're not 4 supposed to say anything about that, that's 5 good? How are we getting ready to capture 6 this new freight when that road goes right 7 down in the middle and we are no longer be 8 able to expand South Port? 9 That's why we're here, to get 10 answers. And I know you're going to tell me 11 you're not going to give me the answer I want. 12 But you're traffic people. How do you do 13 that? How do you build a road that doesn't 14 take care of the problem? 15 MR. DAVIES: Like I said, it's a 16 temporary solution. A bridge of this size -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: How much 18 does that temporary solution cost? 19 MR. DAVIES: I don't have costs for 20 you, Representative. 21 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: How much 22 does the road cost? 23 MR. DAVIES: Let me just say this, 24 that the bridge -- 25 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: No, we're 53 2 here to get answers, would you please give me 3 an answer? 4 MR. DAVIES: The answer is this, the 5 bridge that goes over the tracks, that goes 6 over the wetlands, that gets you to the 7 location of the new Food Distribution Center 8 is a very complicated thing to build and it's 9 going to take time. It's going to take time 10 to permit, it's going to take time to acquire 11 all the clearances -- 12 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Is this a 13 new bridge in addition to the temporary road? 14 MR. DAVIES: Yes. 15 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: How much 16 will the new bridge cost? 17 MR. DAVIES: Estimates vary, it's 18 probably going to be about $75 million 19 dollars. 20 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: $75 million 21 dollars. And that's how far away? 22 MR. DAVIES: If I had to estimate a 23 time here, it's just an estimate, I would say 24 we are at least four years away from 25 construction. 54 2 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: I believe 3 that is not a good use or good solution to 4 what we are trying to capture in the future. 5 I'm for the Food Distribution 6 Center, we want to keep it here in 7 Philadelphia, I don't believe we should build 8 a road that is really -- it will hurt what 9 we're trying to do in the port, it will hurt 10 trying to capture. We just heard the MPO say 11 these at-grade crossings are bad. How do we 12 do it? These are one of the questions we got 13 to get answers here. I think that is flawed 14 and will always be flawed. We better take a 15 long, hard look at that. I would like the MPO 16 to get involved and take a look at that too. 17 I think what we're doing is wrong and we got 18 to sit down and get better plans than we have 19 now. This is another square peg in a round 20 hole. You're just jamming that road down 21 there. We better take our time and do this 22 the right way. 23 MR. DOUGHERTY: Now, again, that is 24 a hardcore industrial conversation. But if 25 you -- in the intermediate, all the truck 55 2 traffic flow will be -- that's going toward 3 Center City will be probably coming up 4 Delaware Avenue, correct? 5 MR. DAVIES: Yes. 6 MR. DOUGHERTY: Okay. So when we 7 sit here and we start to talk about how does 8 the industrial aspect connect with the gaming 9 aspect, connect with the open air space, 10 amphitheaters and green space and things along 11 these lines. It's nice to have a park where 12 our kids can go and walk and take in this 13 beautiful view. But to add a significant 14 amount of truck traffic and pollution and all 15 the entities that go -- peripherals that go 16 along with that and to say in the intermediate 17 there's no place to dump that. 18 And these are conversations and 19 questions I know from our Civic Association at 20 the time we address to our leadership in the 21 political community and say, Hey, we don't 22 have a problem with you reworking the Fruit 23 Produce Center, we know a lot of people make 24 their living, we know the access to this type 25 of product keeps the cost down in this 56 2 community. But we also -- there has to be 3 other avenues. They just can't make a 4 political decision or a quick decision based 5 on what's in front of you that time. 6 You might have -- you know, it's 7 what neighborhood screams loudest. And at the 8 end we don't want to send it through the Broad 9 Street corridor, we don't want to send it up 10 through the Passyunk, the back-end corridor, 11 then we just dump it on Delaware Avenue 12 because there's really no one down there 13 screaming. 14 So again, you know, I know sometimes 15 you get lost in these conversations here 16 because we're talking about the impact and the 17 amount of dollars and jobs that the industrial 18 industry still brings to a lot of our 19 community, there's still a much larger picture 20 that eventually transcends all of us because 21 this traffic is going no place but on Delaware 22 Avenue. 23 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Let me for 24 one second while I'm on the thought, I'll lose 25 it if I don't, the temporary road that's being 57 2 built and the $75 million dollar bridge which 3 will turn into a $150 million dollar bridge, 4 do we have a Federal match for those monies? 5 MR. DAVIES: To my knowledge it is 6 not going to be used. 7 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: So we're 8 not -- if we do it, if we go through the MPO 9 and get on the TIP and have the MPO put us on, 10 am I correct in saying that the state would 11 only have to put up 20 percent of the money 12 and the feds will put up 80 percent of the 13 money to build these highways or bridges? 14 MR. DAVIES: It's actually not 15 intended to be a state highway. 16 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: If we go on 17 the TIP, if we go through the MPO and get them 18 to put us on their plan, and will the Federal 19 government then share 80 percent of the cost 20 if we go that route? 21 MR. DAVIES: It's a possibility, 22 Representative, but -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: But we're 24 not doing that. We're going to say the state 25 taxpayers are going to pay an additional 58 2 $75 million dollars upwards to get -- and how 3 much is the state paying for the Food 4 Distribution Center now? 5 MR. DAVIES: The Center itself, I 6 don't have that figure. 7 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: That's 8 somewhere between $75 and $100 million 9 dollars. So we're going to pay $75 and 10 $100 million dollars to build a facility and 11 then just to get at that facility we're going 12 to spend another $75 or $100 million dollars, 13 almost 100 percent of what we're putting into 14 the facility. I don't think it makes sense. 15 There's not a better way to do this? 16 Hubbida Hubbida. Thank you very 17 much. 18 Marie. 19 REPRESENTATIVE LEDERER: There's one 20 aspect that we didn't touch on, the almighty 21 buses that come along with the casinos. 22 Nobody talked about access and egress for the 23 large number of buses that will be using the 24 casinos. So that's another aspect that needs 25 a great deal of planning. 59 2 When I talked to some of the people 3 in the casino industry they told me there 4 aren't going to be any buses. You and I know 5 better than that. There has to be a plan. 6 MR. DOUGHERTY: We also, while we 7 have Marie here and there's some, again, some 8 of the questions and concerns that came from 9 the people that are here today, where there's 10 some speculation on Richmond Street might be 11 moved to Delaware Avenue from Susquehanna 12 through Allegheny Avenue and possibly reopened 13 that way, that ramp. Is there any input we 14 can get on that? 15 MR. DAVIES: That is actually part 16 of the preliminary plan that we have to 17 relocate Delaware Avenue and part of Richmond 18 Street toward the river. And that's all going 19 to be done in part with the widening of the 20 viaduct. Delaware -- I'm sorry. 21 MR. DOUGHERTY: Some people are 22 having some difficulty. Maybe we are having 23 some difficulty with your mike, maybe we can 24 move this over here. 25 MR. DAVIES: Better? 60 2 MR. DOUGHERTY: Just speak into it. 3 MR. DAVIES: Sure. 4 It's a difficult thing to describe. 5 I have a sketch that we could look at later if 6 you'd like. But, yes, the preliminary plan is 7 for Delaware Avenue to move approximately 30, 8 40 feet in the direction toward the river and 9 to connect with the portion, that piece of 10 Delaware Avenue behind the Anderson Yards 11 north of Allegheny. 12 MR. DOUGHERTY: Okay. Is everybody 13 understanding and hearing that? 14 We are talking about the specific 15 ramp. 16 We apologize for this. We'll work 17 on this during the next break. 18 REPRESENTATIVE LEDERER: There seems 19 to be a plan to, at that intersection, the 20 cut-off, to close off Beach Street and give 21 that part of Beach Street to the casinos. 22 That shows on one of the PennDot maps. I'll 23 supply you with that. I don't have it with 24 me. But why would we give a city street to 25 the casino? 61 2 MR. DAVIES: The plans so far have 3 not been developed with the casinos in mind. 4 I remind you that the I-95 project has been 5 underway for some time. And Girard Avenue 6 interchange has been under design for some 7 years before anybody was talking about gaming. 8 So, you know, we have not made any, you know, 9 adjustments or accomodations for gaming. 10 The thing that we have done recently 11 is last summer asked DVRPC to give us a 12 revised traffic projection that accounts not 13 only for gaming but all the development in the 14 Girard Avenue interchange area so that we can 15 better plan for conditions as they exist. 16 Naturally, each one of those is going to be a 17 snapshot at the time it's taken. 18 But as far as the question, are we 19 accommodating a casino plan with this feature 20 and that feature on the Girard Avenue 21 interchange? The answer is no. 22 MR. DOUGHERTY: How about a 23 temporary ramp at Girard Street right now, is 24 that still in discussion? 25 MR. DAVIES: That has never been in 62 2 discussion, in fact. 3 MR. DOUGHERTY: It's strongly 4 rumored then. 5 MR. DAVIES: That is only a rumor. 6 It is untrue. There is no temporary ramp 7 included in our plan. None of the casinos has 8 come forward with an idea for a temporary 9 ramp. There is no funding for a temporary 10 ramp. It's not on the table. 11 MR. LEVINS: I have a question that 12 really touches on a lot of the questions that 13 were just raised here. And, you know, I 14 realize all businesses and government agencies 15 have to have a strategic plan that goes out 16 ten, 15 years. And it's very clear that you 17 have not -- neither Ted, perhaps, the Planning 18 Commission, or PennDot, has really taken into 19 consideration the changes that really no one 20 could have seen perhaps five years ago. And I 21 know businesses have to adjust their plans. 22 And, you know, is there a history 23 with your organization to make those kinds of 24 adjustments to accommodate perhaps increased 25 container opportunities and obviously the 63 2 casinos. Are you doing that? Are you 3 thinking about that? Obviously, your plans to 4 date have not captured those new developments. 5 MR. DAVIES: The casinos have each 6 made a short presentation to the district 7 office. And they have outlined, sketched 8 very, very briefly their plans, what they 9 would -- how they would connect, you know, 10 into their locations in terms of traffic. But 11 it's only been that, you know, it's just been 12 very brief, very much of an outline. And you 13 know, we haven't made any adjustments to what 14 we're going to do because obviously all this 15 is up in the air. 16 And so, you know, in reacting to the 17 casino proposals on the I-95 corridor in 18 particular, you know, there is just no 19 reaction on our part because obviously we 20 don't know what's going to happen. And every 21 time an engineer puts pen to paper it starts 22 costing money. 23 MR. RUBEN: Can I just briefly 24 follow up on that or -- 25 MR. DOUGHERTY: Yeah, Matt, just let 64 2 me go to -- 3 MR. RUBEN: Absolutely. 4 MR. DOUGHERTY: Yes, ma'am. 5 MS. THORPE: I don't know if we can 6 speak or not. Are we allowed to speak? 7 MR. DOUGHERTY: You're allowed to do 8 whatever you like. 9 MS. THORPE: Or can we just write 10 things? 11 I am Sarah Thorpe, I live in 12 Fishtown. And I can probably speak for a lot 13 of people in my neighborhood when I say that 14 we are actually pretty outraged that this can 15 happen to us. We understand that planning 16 takes a really long time from PennDOT. But 17 these casinos are coming, they're going to be 18 licensed in December and within six months 19 they're going to have 1,500 slots open to the 20 public. 21 And that was legislation that was 22 pushed through by the state, we understand 23 that, but PennDot needs to be working with the 24 legislation on this casino issue. We can't 25 have something happen in June when casinos 65 2 open with 1,500 slots and thousands of cars 3 coming down our street and no plan to take 4 care of it. 5 We've been screaming about this 6 since April and nobody seems to listen to us. 7 People keep saying, We're working on it, The 8 casinos have done preliminary sketches. Well, 9 where is some action on this? Our 10 neighborhood is going to be a mess in eight 11 months and nobody seems to be doing anything 12 about it. 13 I'm sorry. I'm just outraged. I'm 14 trying to control my temper right now. But, 15 you know, we just seem to not be able to get 16 any answers from anybody about how is this 17 going to work when these things open next 18 June. 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: Don't hold your 20 temper, that's why we're here. Okay. That's 21 what the whole focus of this morning's 22 symposium and tomorrow's follow-up piece is, 23 is that State Representatives are not getting 24 answers. Legislation is being pushed through. 25 The question I asked, I opened up, 66 2 Foxwoods will be dead set in the center of 3 Pennsport Civic Association. If you walk to 4 the dead center of it make a left and head 5 toward the water you're going to walk in the 6 front door of Foxwoods. 7 Not only Foxwoods, but all of the 8 other proposals have -- basically beyond 9 Girard off-ramp, have used the Washington 10 Avenue/Reed Street as their access and egress, 11 correct? Correct. 12 Every point, every bulletin, every 13 meeting, every 15-year, 12, 15, 30-year plan 14 has nothing on it that says we're going to 15 take that ramp and go into the water front, 16 we're going to open that ramp up. 17 There is nothing. Is there anything 18 anywhere in the game plan? I haven't been 19 able to see it. No one I've asked has 20 supplied anything. The answers continually 21 are, they're quick meetings, they're quick 22 meetings, they're quick parking reviews, 23 they're quick studies. There's nothing that 24 says anything, you know, that will -- this is 25 not a quick proposal, this is a lifetime 67 2 adjustment for each one of these 3 neighborhoods. 4 You just heard the State 5 Representative, and it all comes down that, 6 you know, we talk about -- he talks about 7 squeezing a square peg into a round hole. 8 Okay. We put $150 million dollars to 9 create -- move the industry, which is needed, 10 but we put another $150 million dollars, and 11 because there's no plan, there's no foresight 12 to it, instead of getting matching funds, we 13 just put it on the state taxpayers. Okay. 14 And again, the reason we're here is 15 that the neighborhoods are crying out for some 16 sort of input and plan. We want input into 17 the plan, but we just want someone to layout a 18 plan. So that's the concept here. 19 And again, there's no -- you have no 20 idea, there's nothing in any one of these 21 quick meetings about taking that off-ramp at 22 Reed Street and doing anything with it, right? 23 MR. DAVIES: Maybe what I ought to 24 do is talk about what we are doing on 95. 25 I'll work my way down to there, but just bear 68 2 with me for a second here. 3 PennDot needs to reconstruct I-95 4 for the entire distance through the City of 5 Philadelphia, okay. I'm, by training, a 6 bridge engineer. The structures on I-95 are 7 in bad condition. Many of them are in very 8 bad condition. The state of Pennsylvania 9 ranks either 46th or 49th in terms of bridge 10 condition nationwide. That's bad. Nobody 11 wants to be there. A large component of that 12 is I-95. 30 percent of the bridge deck area 13 in the five county district of PennDot is on 14 I-95. 15 Now, to solve our problem here we 16 have to reconstruct I-95 and the bridge 17 conditions are driving that. So nobody has to 18 worry about our sort of forgetting about this. 19 If we don't do this those bridges are going to 20 start to be weight restricted or closed. 21 We've had up at the State Road viaduct before 22 it was reconstructed, frankly, some close 23 calls. We've had main load bearing member 24 failures. That's bad. We've put $150 million 25 so far into the reconstruction of 95 and we 69 2 have about $900 million that's still 3 programmed. And that only gets us to Vine 4 Street. 5 Now, south of Vine there is nothing 6 programmed. But much of that is elevated and 7 much of it is in poor condition so it has to 8 be done. So I guess what I'm telling you is 9 that one way or another we're going to work 10 our way down to Reed Street. It may not be as 11 soon as you want, but we don't have any 12 choice, really. It's going to have to be 13 done. It certainly has to be programmed 14 within the next ten years. 15 And the reason it hasn't been 16 programmed already is because we have a TIP 17 that is enormous and underfunded. We have 18 over 550 projects in the district right now 19 that we're working on, many of which are 20 not -- most of which are not funded. And it's 21 just a huge pile of stuff to work through the 22 system in terms of design and permitting and 23 all the steps to go through to get it to 24 construction. So we're getting there, but 25 it's a huge, huge job. 70 2 Now, in terms of south of Vine 3 Street, it does have to be programmed, it will 4 have to be reconstructed. We are going to do 5 a temporary surface treatment type and 6 critical structural repair type project within 7 the next year, but that's really only a 8 stopgap type thing. And the real 9 reconstruction is probably going to take place 10 after 2015, once we're finished north of Vine. 11 MR. RUBEN: Could I just piggyback 12 on that for a second and piggyback on what 13 Sarah was saying a moment ago? 14 The communities in the Central or 15 North Delaware have formed a Casino Unity 16 Coalition and it consists of approximately 17 nine organizations which in total serves 18 something like 200,000 taxpayers in this part 19 of the Delaware. 20 And Representative Lederer mentioned 21 the 3,000 condominiums going in, and the 22 number may be even higher. We don't know 23 where the casinos are going to go, but we know 24 that there is going to be at least one on the 25 river and there very well may be two. 71 2 The casinos' traffic studies are 3 inadequate, to say the least, but they contain 4 traffic counts and they contain numbers and 5 there are generally accepted professional 6 guidelines to count traffic for residential 7 units. And there are generally accepted 8 guidelines to count traffic for the square 9 footage of commercial space that goes along 10 with those residential units. And there are 11 generally accepted guidelines to count traffic 12 for increased freight related vehicles. 13 So my question is, who can serve, 14 not only the communities in the South, but the 15 communities that have gotten together in the 16 north around casino issues and, of course, 17 around related traffic and planning issues? 18 Can PennDOT or anyone else assign someone to 19 sit down and take all of these traffic counts 20 and just paint us a picture of what we are 21 supposed to expect and what the level of 22 service will be in different areas of Delaware 23 Avenue? 24 I understand and appreciate you've 25 got a lot on your plate. But if someone gave 72 2 me $50,000 I could hire a traffic person 3 tomorrow and get a study done in three to six 4 months that would tell us, here is the picture 5 of what you can expect. And I think in some 6 sense all we're asking for is paint us the 7 picture. There are counts, and the casinos 8 are undercounting, but at least they're in the 9 basic neighborhood. And you can -- no one has 10 added these things up and no one has taken 11 responsibility for adding these things up. 12 And I would think that since the 13 casino law is a state law and is seeking to 14 take control away from the city for 15 everything, that PennDOT, as the state traffic 16 agency, could assign a traffic person to count 17 up these traffic counts and paint us a picture 18 and brief the communities on it. 19 MR. DAVIES: I think I mentioned 20 earlier that the project manager for the 21 Girard Avenue interchange project has asked 22 DVRPC for updated traffic counts that will 23 take into account not only the casinos, but 24 other development, condominiums, as best as 25 they can figure everything that's going on. 73 2 So we are updating our numbers from 3 what they were seven or eight years ago when 4 the project started. 5 MR. RUBEN: Well, we'll be more than 6 happy to give you numbers that we have because 7 we see all these development projects come 8 through our community zoning as to other 9 groups in our coalition. And we will be happy 10 to give you that. Just -- I will give you my 11 e-mail and we'll give it to you this week. 12 MR. DAVIES: That's fine. And 13 obviously, you know, during the course of that 14 design there are going to be public meetings, 15 there's going to be communications, and 16 there's going to be plenty of time for that 17 dialogue to take place. 18 MR. DOUGHERTY: We've got a couple 19 other. 20 REPRESENTATIVE TAYLOR: Could you 21 just say who is the project manager for 22 Girard? 23 MR. DAVIES: The project manager for 24 Girard is Elaine Elbick, she is in our 25 district office at King of Prussia. My name 74 2 is on the website in the district office, if 3 you can't get ahold of her, you can get ahold 4 of me. 5 MR. DOUGHERTY: Mr. Brooks. 6 MR. BROOKS: Mr. Dougherty, I just 7 want to thank this group for pulling this 8 committee together. I guess when my son asked 9 me if I was going to be at the soccer game 10 tomorrow and I told him no, I had to go to 11 work, he goes, Well, why do you have to go to 12 work? And I had three -- a couple of reasons. 13 And I'll just share them with you. One right 14 now. 15 For 11 years I lived at 106 Watkins 16 Street, Front and Watkins Street. And I 17 watched Watkins Street -- I watched Front 18 Street transition from a neighborhood 19 thoroughfare to a highway as Delaware Avenue 20 and Christopher Columbus at the southern end 21 got more and more crowded I started to see 22 more and more cars move onto Front Street. 23 It's one of the reasons that prompted our move 24 from that neighborhood. 25 But just another quick aside, and I 75 2 know I'm not going to be here for that 3 discussion, I guess when I originally bought 4 the house I didn't know I was going to have an 5 indoor pool every time it rained. And my 6 basement -- I'm literally one house off of 7 Front Street, whenever there was a substantial 8 rainstorm we get six inches of water in the 9 basement. I partly blame the home owner I 10 bought it from for not disclosing it. I 11 partly blame my home inspector for not 12 pointing that out. So I wore my former 13 resident of Pennsport hat today. And I still 14 have tons of friends in that neighborhood. I 15 feel their pain. 16 The other hat I want to wear is, my 17 wife was born and raised in Fishtown/Port 18 Richmond area. It's actually a no man's land 19 of a neighborhood, they should call it flat 20 iron on Thompson Street between Huntington and 21 Lehigh. And it's just blocks from State 22 Representative Taylor's office. 23 And my in-laws still live there 24 today at 2635 Thompson Street. And 25 unfortunately, the way the economy works 76 2 today, it's a double income family, my wife 3 and I both work and my in-laws have to watch 4 my kids, love watching my kids. 5 But yesterday was a classic example, 6 getting back to that traffic issue. While my 7 older two, my ten year old and seven year old, 8 are able to stay in the neighborhood, the 9 neighborhood we live in now in Northeast 10 Philadelphia and stay with friends there, my 11 twins, my four-year-old twins were at my 12 in-laws and nearly had a tragedy yesterday 13 when cars speeding north on Thompson Street 14 nearly came on the sidewalk and hit my kids. 15 When the police showed up on sight 16 it pained me to overhear that they were using 17 Thompson Street, okay. And that section 18 there, if you're not aware of what that 19 section of the city is like, it's narrow, 20 one-way streets that were never designed to 21 become de facto highways, but because there 22 was back-ups at 95, because there was back-ups 23 on Delaware Avenue where it transitions into 24 Richmond Street people make that decision to 25 cut through the Port Richmond Plaza and use 77 2 Thompson Street and Aramingo Avenue as 3 north-south traffic. And that's just going to 4 get worse. 5 And I recognize the challenge facing 6 PennDot and the Delaware Valley Planning 7 Commission as well as the legislators here 8 today on how you're going to deal with this 9 issue. And I don't have convenient answers. 10 I just wanted to share that, that rank and 11 file people are experiencing them every day. 12 But one way to deal with the 13 issue -- and everybody is hammering the 14 planning, the P word, planning. I'm not going 15 to deal with that today. But another way to 16 deal with that is look at non-traditional 17 transportation methods, ways of getting people 18 north and south along Columbus Boulevard, 19 Delaware Avenue and Richmond Street that does 20 not rely on vehicular traffic. 21 And to that end I would ask our 22 state legislators to continue to apply 23 pressure to folks like the Delaware River Port 24 Authority who have shifted their focus, and 25 also to our legislators in Washington D.C. 78 2 That my third hat that I wear is the 3 Acting President of the Penns Landing 4 Corporation. A half decade ago we were really 5 aggressive in a project that I was involved in 6 intimately because it's important to me was 7 non-traditional, green friendly, non-pollutant 8 transportation along the water front. We were 9 really successful and mining the Federal 10 government in the water shuttle systems. 11 One of the things we were able to do 12 was revamp and transform the failing River Bus 13 into the Riverlink Ferry that served east-west 14 access. And we were able to secure Federal 15 dollars for north-south water shuttles, but 16 we've run into a brick wall in that Federal 17 dollars have dried up and to some extent the 18 assist we had at the DRPA has dried up. We've 19 got a half a dozen boats ready to hit the 20 water and ready to start serving. But a half 21 dozen 30-passenger boats aren't going to solve 22 this. 23 If we can get the commitment from 24 the Federal government to find ways to move 25 people north and south that's not strictly 79 2 based upon putting more cars on Christopher 3 Columbus Boulevard and Delaware Avenue I think 4 will go a long way to help solve this problem. 5 So again, thank you. Thank you for 6 your time and thank you for putting this 7 together. 8 MS. GOODWIN: John, I have a 9 question. 10 MR. DOUGHERTY: Yes, Rene. 11 MS. GOODWIN: I want to make sure 12 that I understood correctly something that you 13 said. I understand clearer now than I ever 14 did before the importance of the 15 reconstruction for safety issues of I-95. 16 Now -- and I heard Mr. Dougherty mention Reed 17 Street, and you also addressed that, sir. Am 18 I to understand that regardless of whether or 19 not we get Foxwoods it is an inevitability 20 that there is going to be a ramp at 21 Reed/Dickinson Street or did I misconstrue 22 that? That's part one. 23 And part two is, the casino 24 applicants have been inappropriate in not 25 supplying communities with copies of their 80 2 various reports. I know on the 16th, 3 Foxwoods, for example, is submitting 4 additional information. It would be so nice 5 to have access to that. But of course we're 6 only the residents. However, PennDOT, as the 7 key agency, the key entity to oversee the 8 entire traffic and transportation issue, at 9 least in terms of the roads, do you, sir, get 10 copies of those reports? And if not, how 11 arrogant of the casinos to expect you to do a 12 job that's not only reconstructing a major 13 highway, but trying to at the same time 14 address the changing needs of this entire 15 city? 16 That's sort of rhetorical, but the 17 first one about the ramp I really would like 18 an answer to. Thank you. 19 MR. DAVIES: What I meant to say 20 was, is that it is definite that the viaducts 21 in South Philadelphia that carry I-95 will 22 need to be reconstructed within the next 20 23 years. That has to be done. 24 MS. GOODWIN: That means Reed 25 Street? 81 2 MR. DAVIES: That would mean Reed 3 Street. Now, whether or not there is a ramp 4 there is another matter. It is conceivable, 5 all right, it's conceivable, that the casino 6 would say, Well, we'll build one right now at 7 our expense, if they can get the Federal 8 government to -- if the FHWA would approve it, 9 it is a limited access Federal highway, and 10 they have an interest in that, then it might 11 be able to be done. 12 MR. DOUGHERTY: One of the questions 13 that I will piggyback on the back of that is, 14 is PennDOT meeting with the State Gaming 15 Control Board to discuss the casino proposals? 16 MR. DAVIES: Each of the casinos has 17 tried to make a presentation to us so that 18 they could tell the Gaming Board they've 19 coordinated with us. Okay. So they come in, 20 they show us a few cards. The day before 21 yesterday Foxwoods was into the office, they 22 left a stack of papers, traffic projections 23 and our traffic people are looking them over. 24 They've seen them for the first time. 25 I'm not trying to characterize their 82 2 approach or anything. This is just what's 3 happening. So that's where we are. We are, 4 you know, we are receiving this information, 5 we are not -- we are not in any way -- PennDot 6 is not in any way in control of this process. 7 We're not some integral part of the licensure. 8 MR. DOUGHERTY: If you don't mind, 9 you're telling me that PennDot is not meeting 10 with the Gaming Control Board at all? I mean, 11 you're not telling -- well, not about just 12 traffic, about infrastructure? 13 MR. DAVIES: I'm the guy who is in 14 charge of designing District 6. I do not know 15 if the secretary is meeting with them. I 16 don't know if the executive staff in 17 Harrisburg is meeting with the Gaming Board. 18 I don't know the answer to that question. 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: You do know that so 20 far, basically you get a meeting, okay, the 21 State Gaming, they come in, they give a 22 proposal and hasn't been in depth to what 23 you're normally accustomed to? You're looking 24 at something that's going to change the face 25 of the water front for years to come on one 83 2 hand in a real quick time frame. And on the 3 other hand, you're telling us that we have a 4 15 to 30-year game plan that will eventually 5 work through, we got $900 million dollars, and 6 we'll eventually get to Reed Street. 7 MR. DAVIES: Be clear about that, 8 that $900 million only gets you to Vine. 9 MR. DOUGHERTY: Only to Vine, okay. 10 But what my point is, is that, if we want to 11 force feed something, okay, we're capable. 12 And obviously, when we have seminars and 13 symposiums and things along these lines and 14 these questions get asked and these questions 15 are answered, the result to that, the response 16 we get is Senate Bill 826 -- or 862. Well, 17 826 will probably come next. Okay, 862. 18 Okay. So, okay, just -- how about, 19 we also have with us here, we have Charlie 20 Denny from the Streets Department. And one of 21 the questions, Charlie, that came from, you 22 know, a community meeting -- and by the way, 23 this has been very good and we appreciate you 24 taking the time in coming down here today and 25 answering these questions like this or at 84 2 least attempting to. And hearing, you know, 3 some of our concerns and taking them back. 4 And I also want to let people know 5 that after we break in 15 minutes or so we 6 will then get into, you know, some serious 7 questions about the infrastructure and water 8 and sewer issues that are not only relevant to 9 casino expansion and things along them lines, 10 but have also have been issues that we believe 11 that when we started to tie up 90 acres of 12 land with big box development, things along 13 them lines, the 100 blocks of certain 14 communities right on the flip side of these 15 development projects have, as you heard, been 16 gathering a lot of water, I refer to as 17 aquarium-like basements. 18 Okay. Let me just take the one 19 question here then we'll go back to the 20 Streets Department. 21 You know, about all the ancillary 22 development, Columbus Commons, Pier 70, you 23 know, traffics and things like that. Also, 24 there was a question that kind of transcends 25 both yourself, part of common usage in the 85 2 case of cities of First Class, the 3 Commonwealth provides the funding for signage, 4 stripping, traffic, columning, while the city 5 implements it. Is there a coordinated effort 6 going on between the city and the state in 7 reference to, you know, discussions about this 8 type of stuff that will be needed for, not 9 only water front development, but gaming in 10 particular? That's a question that was asked. 11 MR. DENNY: Let me start out, my 12 name is Charles Denny, I'm with the Streets 13 Department, I'm the Assistant Chief Traffic 14 Engineer. The Traffic Engineering Division is 15